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I understand your passion, but don't you think we, the adopters, wish we had crystal balls too? Why do people lump everyone together and generalize? I know, that as volunteers, you come across a LOT of scenarios and the animals get the short end but lets not denigrate all adopters of having nefarious purposes here.
Is it just possible that it's just not a good fit? A home visit can reveal but so much. Just like you beat yourself up don't you think the "failed adopter" who actually cares about the animals that cross their threshold "beats him/herself up" too? "Good with all people" does not mean "works with younger children". He's a great dog but he's only been exposed to adults in his life.
I just want to mention my daughter did NOT assault the dog. Please folks don't generalize all small children as hellions who torment animals. She made the mistake of not picking up on his cues and continuing to touch him. No one is at fault here, her, or the dog. It's an unfortunate situation but after really evaluating the sum total, I agree with mic. This dog was never exposed to children in an intimate environment like a house. He is better suited with adults (his body language, once I think about it clearly shows this) and if I really do care about him, I'd have him go to a home where he'd feel comfortable. Which is what I'm going to do, with heavy heart. He's going back to his foster house, who is a single woman with no kids. Mic's post and OverItAll's, combined with my correspondence with the owner of the rescue who is also a mother of two, have helped me reach a decision that was best for everyone involved.
I wasn't holding on to the dog because I felt he wouldn't be adoptable. I couldn't make a firm decision because OUR FAMILY LEGITIMATELY WAS BONDING WITH THE DOG. My youngest daughter is going to be very upset about the dog being returned and we're going to have to address that, plus making sure she doesn't fear dogs after this. But we're doing the right thing now by doing this.
There's not really a right thing or wrong thing after what has happened. You've had to make a very difficult decision as to what was the best thing for (1) you and your family, (2) the dog. You are obviously a compassionate and careful dog owner; and your daughter was not at fault, she was a small child wanting to pet the dog. In your shoes, I might have made the same choice.
I think that you should get another dog, if only to heal the emotional wounds and to help your daughter get over her feelings of guilt and possible fear of dogs. If you rescue another dog, be sure and get a dog who has been fostered with children and has shown a high tolerance for sudden approaches and petting by kids - forgive me if you've already realized this and are planning to do so. Maybe a dog who is senior but younger than 11 years old that may be less physically fragile.
We just had one very carefully screened adopter dump her dog into the Humane Society because she was going out of town for 2 weeks and her mother did not want to care for the dog for her..... This is a VERY timid, frightened chihuahua that she had had for about a month..... She dumped him there because she did not want to drive all the way back to his foster's house to return him in spite of signing a contract that that was EXACTLY what she would do if the adoption did not work, for WHATEVER reason..... I, or one of our other volunteers, would have gladly driven to her house to pick him up, but she didn't have time to wait..... Like she didn't know about this trip abroad until the day before she was leaving?? Thank Goodness he was chipped and she never changed it to her name......
I had another adopter return a dog after about two weeks, because he wouldn't stop marking in her house..... she hemmed and hawed about what she had done to try to manage the problem and cried big ol' crocodile tears as she handed him over to me on her way to a shopping expedition in a town south of me.....
Maybe this has made me cynical......
I think the foster should have been more honest with you about the dog's lack of experience with children......
It is my worst nightmare to have one of my fosters end up at a shelter. I try very hard to let my adopters know that I want the dog to come back. We have a clause in the contract that says we can yank the dog back without their permission. To my knowledge it hasn't been used but I'm sure it was put there because of a bad situation. It makes people very nervous so I emphasize it hasn't been used and was only put there because of bad abuse. I don't want them to be nervous about discussing difficulties because we have loads of experience with expensive trainers and often I can help them solve the problem. But sometimes I just yearn to say, bring the dog back please. But I have to respect their decision making and most of the them want to try because we pick really great adopters.
Having a dog can be a really wonderful, challenging, awesome, magical, drive you crazy experience. One of my friends always claimed she was allergic to dogs so never wanted to interact with or see mine. Imagine my surprise when she adopts a purebred border collie puppy from a shelter one day. She is not athletic. Never exercises. Never owned a dog. Didn't talk to me about my recommendations etc. So she calls in tears that the dog is driving her crazy. He has pooed and peed on the carpet of their brand new home. He is bouncing off the walls (Border collie puppy with no exercise? Really?). So I tell her what to do. We get the dog into doggy day care every day. Sometimes they drop the dog off here for a day to give them a break and my dogs help train this incredibly smart dog. Best border collie I have ever met in my life. She gets the book 1000 things to teach your dog and he learns them all instantly and forever remembers them. Her friends love all the tricks he can do. She is very proud. The dog, who isn't allowed to sleep in the bedroom, sleeps just outside the door with one eye open to gaze lovingly at her all night long. Pretty soon the dog is the love of her life. All her friends want a dog just like him. She had done some breed research since then and councils them that border collies are not good family dogs and not dogs that are easy to own. It was just very fortunate that she is a research oriented person who knows how to learn about things outside her box and implement them. Another year later she confides that she loves the dog more than her husband and if it came to a choice between the two of them the dog wins. Luckily the husband loves the dog also.
I really can't blame the foster either. Until you have fostered a few you don't really see the trend of dogs not liking children. Until you read On Talking Terms with Dogs you don't really know how to interpret the signals the dogs are sending. Likely the dog was telling the family to not let the 6 yr old pet him for the entire 5 weeks. I know now that my dog that I talked about above, the one who started snapping on hikes, didn't start it for at least 4-6 weeks, was probably trying to tell me he did not want to be petted. He just stood there tolerating being petted. He neither welcomed it or discouraged it. But if I'd known to read the signals that I do now, I would have realized he loathed it. If I had known I could have stopped it earlier and he never would have developed the habit of snapping at people who tried to pet him.
So where did this dog who loathed being petted come from? He had been a family dog for the first year and then tied in the backyard to a tree for about 4 years. Then the family moved and left him tied to the tree. A neighbor went over once a day and gave him a can of dog food. Eventually the neighbor told a rescue person about him in a grocery store line. He was rescued and was in the foster home for Siberian Husky Rescue for 1 year.
So I come along, looking for a larger dog to go hiking with me, a single female. I hiked all the time and was nervous about bears, mountain lions and people on isolated trails. I had dogs as a kid but this was my first dog as an adult. (BTW, having a family dog as a kid does not count as dog experience when interviewing adopters) I also worked full time so wanted a dog that would not be unhappy in the house by himself all day. I walked a few miles in the morning and ran a few miles at night so wanted a dog that loved to walk and hike. I did not want a clingy dog that made me feel guilty when I was not spending all my time with them. I wanted an independent athletic dog, big enough to give a protective feel.
In his foster home he was said to hang out behind the recliner all day. He walked in the evening with the owner out to go to the bathroom and then came back. They though he would love to do more walking and hiking. He was about 6 years old. He pretty much kept to himself at the foster home. He had been with them a year so they were considering keeping him if I decided against him. I met with him 3 times. They brought him to the house so I could see how he reacted to the house and yard. I waited to think it out over night. They figured I did not want him and were very surprised to hear from me the next day. They called my references and gave me the OK.
Like I said above the snapping behavior did not start for about a month. To me he was fine being petted. I thought he liked it. Who wouldn't love all the oohs and aahs about how cute he was. I had so much to learn about dogs....
It is my worst nightmare to have one of my fosters end up at a shelter. I try very hard to let my adopters know that I want the dog to come back. We have a clause in the contract that says we can yank the dog back without their permission. To my knowledge it hasn't been used but I'm sure it was put there because of a bad situation. It makes people very nervous so I emphasize it hasn't been used and was only put there because of bad abuse. I don't want them to be nervous about discussing difficulties because we have loads of experience with expensive trainers and often I can help them solve the problem. But sometimes I just yearn to say, bring the dog back please. But I have to respect their decision making and most of the them want to try because we pick really great adopters.
Having a dog can be a really wonderful, challenging, awesome, magical, drive you crazy experience. One of my friends always claimed she was allergic to dogs so never wanted to interact with or see mine. Imagine my surprise when she adopts a purebred border collie puppy from a shelter one day. She is not athletic. Never exercises. Never owned a dog. Didn't talk to me about my recommendations etc. So she calls in tears that the dog is driving her crazy. He has pooed and peed on the carpet of their brand new home. He is bouncing off the walls (Border collie puppy with no exercise? Really?). So I tell her what to do. We get the dog into doggy day care every day. Sometimes they drop the dog off here for a day to give them a break and my dogs help train this incredibly smart dog. Best border collie I have ever met in my life. She gets the book 1000 things to teach your dog and he learns them all instantly and forever remembers them. Her friends love all the tricks he can do. She is very proud. The dog, who isn't allowed to sleep in the bedroom, sleeps just outside the door with one eye open to gaze lovingly at her all night long. Pretty soon the dog is the love of her life. All her friends want a dog just like him. She had done some breed research since then and councils them that border collies are not good family dogs and not dogs that are easy to own. It was just very fortunate that she is a research oriented person who knows how to learn about things outside her box and implement them. Another year later she confides that she loves the dog more than her husband and if it came to a choice between the two of them the dog wins. Luckily the husband loves the dog also.
I really can't blame the foster either. Until you have fostered a few you don't really see the trend of dogs not liking children. Until you read On Talking Terms with Dogs you don't really know how to interpret the signals the dogs are sending. Likely the dog was telling the family to not let the 6 yr old pet him for the entire 5 weeks. I know now that my dog that I talked about above, the one who started snapping on hikes, didn't start it for at least 4-6 weeks, was probably trying to tell me he did not want to be petted. He just stood there tolerating being petted. He neither welcomed it or discouraged it. But if I'd known to read the signals that I do now, I would have realized he loathed it. If I had known I could have stopped it earlier and he never would have developed the habit of snapping at people who tried to pet him.
So where did this dog who loathed being petted come from? He had been a family dog for the first year and then tied in the backyard to a tree for about 4 years. Then the family moved and left him tied to the tree. A neighbor went over once a day and gave him a can of dog food. Eventually the neighbor told a rescue person about him in a grocery store line. He was rescued and was in the foster home for Siberian Husky Rescue for 1 year.
So I come along, looking for a larger dog to go hiking with me, a single female. I hiked all the time and was nervous about bears, mountain lions and people on isolated trails. I had dogs as a kid but this was my first dog as an adult. (BTW, having a family dog as a kid does not count as dog experience when interviewing adopters) I also worked full time so wanted a dog that would not be unhappy in the house by himself all day. I walked a few miles in the morning and ran a few miles at night so wanted a dog that loved to walk and hike. I did not want a clingy dog that made me feel guilty when I was not spending all my time with them. I wanted an independent athletic dog, big enough to give a protective feel.
In his foster home he was said to hang out behind the recliner all day. He walked in the evening with the owner out to go to the bathroom and then came back. They though he would love to do more walking and hiking. He was about 6 years old. He pretty much kept to himself at the foster home. He had been with them a year so they were considering keeping him if I decided against him. I met with him 3 times. They brought him to the house so I could see how he reacted to the house and yard. I waited to think it out over night. They figured I did not want him and were very surprised to hear from me the next day. They called my references and gave me the OK.
Like I said above the snapping behavior did not start for about a month. To me he was fine being petted. I thought he liked it. Who wouldn't love all the oohs and aahs about how cute he was. I had so much to learn about dogs....
LOL.... you pick a Chow and I pick a predominantly cattle dog mix for our first grownup dogs..... talk about on the job training!!
back to the OP.....
Rialese, I think you made the right decision for your family and situation.... and I sincerely hope you are not turned off to adopting a companion for your family.... and will keep us posted as events warrant......
I understand your passion, but don't you think we, the adopters, wish we had crystal balls too? Why do people lump everyone together and generalize? .....
I just want to mention my daughter did NOT assault the dog. Please folks don't generalize all small children as hellions who torment animals. She made the mistake of not picking up on his cues and continuing to touch him. No one is at fault here, her, or the dog. It's an unfortunate situation but after really evaluating the sum total, I agree with mic. This dog was never exposed to children in an intimate environment like a house. He is better suited with adults ....
Just to be clear, all who are following this thread-
its not that all small children torment animals- but that- some dogs (and I do think older dogs can be this way more often, especially those not exposed to them or who are in poor health, or just old!)-
but that some dogs do not enjoy being around them, for the reasons I mentioned before.
Not blaming your children, OP. But just like some people, some dogs do not enjoy kids and merely tolerate them- up to a point where they can't anymore.
Anyway,
hopefully the situation will resolve, your family will get a dog thats more suited to family life, and the dog will get a home thats better suited to him...
LOL.... you pick a Chow and I pick a predominantly cattle dog mix for our first grownup dogs..... talk about on the job training!!
Actually I almost returned him. I traveled alot for work and on my first trip out of town he tried to attack the pet sitter. I had her over to meet him in advance and all was fine. But when she came over to let him outside and feed him he was in the bedroom in his crate. The crate was at the foot of the bed so when she came in the doorway she was right there near the door to the crate. He charged her. Luckily she was a vet tech so knew what to do. She threw the treats she had in her hand at him and slammed the door shut. She called me and let me know what happened. It was an overnight trip so I was back the next day to let him out.
She and I discussed it. I told her that if she was uncomfortable with him I would return him. I had other pets that she had been sitting with for several years and I didn't want to lose her.
She said she wanted to work with him. We relocated his crate to the back corner of the bedroom so that bed was between him and the door of the room. He never had a bad reaction to her after that. She fed him lots of treats.
But some years later he went for a pet sitters husband. The pet sitter I usually used couldn't make it one day so she sent her husband. At this time she had been sitting for him for at about 5 years and had taken care of him for multiple week trips, even staying the night a few times when a snow storm made it unlikely she could get back the next day. The husband had also taken care of him with no problem. They split the pet sitting business. I liked the fact that she had backup. But this one time the husband came on his motorbike in full bikers outfit. Black leather pants, black leather jacket, and big clunky black boots. My dog took one look at this man who came in the house dressed up like a big bad biker and he went for him. Did not bite him but chased him out of the house. The pet sitter apologized and said her husband should know better than to dress like that to go see dogs.
This has to be entirely your judgement call. You did not see what happened.
He might be old and have sore spots. She might have provoked him. She 8s obviously not afraid of him.
BUT I would not be face level with any dog that I did not know well. We have a ranch. I have 7 dogs.
I've chronicled our five weeks with the rescue senior dog. Up until this point, things couldn't be better. I'm telling the truth with that. He seemed like he was getting along with the kids well enough and seemed to enjoy the six year old's presence. Then this happened. We made the mistake of leaving the children alone with him for a moment (I was in the bedroom and my husband had stepped outside). So we were not there when the incident happened. That's totally our fault. My daughter came into my room screaming and crying and she had two scrapes on her face (not deep puncture wounds though), one above her lip and the other on her chin. there was bleeding but it wasn't gushing. that's why i think it was more of a nip than an actual bite because bite would mean way more damage. she told me that he jumped up onto the couch beside her, which he does often. She was petting him on the head in "soft strokes". Then, in a sequence of I guess moments, he bared his teeth, growled and got her in the face. When she was screaming and crying she said he didn't give a warning but once she calmed down, on her own and without prompting, she says that he bared his teeth and gave a quick growl. So he did warn but then soon followed with an action.
This caught us totally by surprise as there hasn't been no real signs that I know of. He seemed to get along with the kids. Everything really seemed great and we were commenting on how he's made great strides. We are his first family, he was a vet clinic dog for years before coming to us. We are faced with a difficult decision, one that I don't want to take lightly. I love him very much and don't want to return him but at the same time I have to consider my child's well being. She's never been around dogs before and now she's terrified. She doesn't want us to give him back, but she says that she can't trust him any longer. Regardless, this incidence does change things in our household.
Can anyone please weigh in. Our previous dog never growled or bit so we have no reference. this is all new to us. We try to educate our kids on dog etiquette but obviously something irritated him. The frustrating thing is that WE JUST DON'T KNOW what could have instigated this.
Sorry if I am not coming across clearly, I'm just shocked right now.
I really don't know what to tell you. I could weigh in, but honestly I'm just feeling such sympathy for you being in the position you're in right now, that just wanted to say that much. Good luck in knowing what's best.
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Having dogs has been a learning experience from dog #1.
My first dog was a chow mixed who looked like a teddy bear. He was adorably cute. I took him hiking all the time. People always tried to pet and hug him. He got fed up and started snapping at them. I was confused as to why he didn't like all these nice people trying to pet and hug him. A forest ranger I met on the trail just after he snapped at someone set me straight. She said look, how would you like it if you were walking down a street in NYC and random strangers came up and started touching and hugging you. I thought about it and was like wow! I totally got her point and started asking people not to pet him. Some people still tried to sneak a pat in as they walked by. Sometimes he snapped at them and sometimes not but I really couldn't blame him. He never initiated any aggression. He only responded to people trying to touch him when he did not want to be touched. He never actually bit anyone, it was all warning air snaps to tell them to get away from him and leave him alone.
At home he did not like to have guests in the house. I would introduce him to guests and then put him in my bedroom because I knew people could not resist the urge to love on him, hug him and pet him. I could not monitor their actions all the time so he was safest away from the group. However kids would go back to the bedroom, open the door and try to pet him. I was worried. This dog liked to snap at kids who try to pet him. So I locked him in the crate. He loved being in the crate where random people he did not know couldn't touch him. But well meaning, compassionate visitors to my home would sneak back into the bedroom and unlock the crate! They felt it was abuse for him to be in there for the short time they were in my home. Besides, he was cute, they wanted to pet him and that trumped all else in their minds. I had to make it out like he was cujo to get them to leave the poor dog alone. His cuteness was that overwhelming to people!
My chocolate Labrador Retriever will come up to you, whether on the sidewalk or the trail, lean against you and wait for you to pet her. To her, a stranger is just a friend she hasn't met yet. She's great with everybody, including three grandchildren who have been a bit rambunctious at times.
To those of you who were advocating for the dog to go back to the rescue-
Any and every dog will bite. The question is what is the dog's tolerance level and at what point will it bite.
The OP doesn't know what happened; she wasn't there. The dog warned. As she described it, this was a nip- meaning the dog showed bite inhibition.
The dog was still in its "settling in" period in its new home. The dog had previously shown no warning signs that it didn't like children.
Given the above- what do you suggest she do when she adopts another dog and it nips? Does she return it again or does she accept responsibility, learn how to manage these situations, and educate herself?
Whether justified or not- in this case the OP chose not to manage the situation and/or work with the dog to make this a workable situation. She was, as someone mentioned, looking for permission to return the dog.
I absolutely disagree with those of you who said that a dog doesn't know the difference between a foster home and a real home, and that it doesn't matter to return the dog. Dogs don't deal well with this sort of upheaval; it is traumatic for them. Each time a dog is returned to a shelter/rescue, it becomes more difficult to adopt out because it withdraws, shuts down a little more, and becomes more depressed.
This is all after the fact at this point, but overall I would caution some sense of balance in your advice. It is fine to want to reassure the OP that it is "OK" to re-home, but at some point, people need to be willing to live up to the commitment they made to the dog. It is not acceptable for a dog to be returned to a rescue simply because the owner is unwilling to work with the dog or manage the situation.
JMHO, and before anyone questions my bona fides, I worked with rescues for many years. I have seen dogs depressed, shut down, and suffering in rescue. As a trainer, I see people who are willing to work with their dogs, people who never should have adopted this particular dog, and people who though trying to work with the dog they simply don't have the experience needed to be successful.
Quote:
Originally Posted by riaelise
I just want to mention my daughter did NOT assault the dog. Please folks don't generalize all small children as hellions who torment animals. She made the mistake of not picking up on his cues and continuing to touch him. No one is at fault here, her, or the dog. It's an unfortunate situation but after really evaluating the sum total, I agree with mic. This dog was never exposed to children in an intimate environment like a house.
OP- this isn't about your daughter "assaulting" the dog. There was some sort of interaction between your daughter and the dog that caused the dog to feel uncomfortable. Even if an experienced dog person had seen the interaction they might have had a hard time deciphering what happened. Neither of your daughters is a reliable witness able to accurately describe what happened. You don't know what happened because you weren't there.
Children must never be left alone with dogs. Period. We are the humans with the big brains. Children must be taught how to behave around a dog. The dog was placed in a situation that it couldn't handle, and it reacted.
BTW- it is a mistake to say that "this dog was never exposed to children in an intimate environment like a house." First of all, you don't know this. Second, any dog, no matter how well socialized to children, is capable of doing what your dog did.
You did what you felt was right for your family. I would caution against getting another dog until you have some solid dog experience under your belt. Maybe volunteer for a shelter or with a CPDT-KA trainer; read and attend seminars by reputable professionals. Educate yourself on dog-human interactions and canine body language.
Last edited by twelvepaw; 08-23-2017 at 05:52 AM..
My chocolate Labrador Retriever will come up to you, whether on the sidewalk or the trail, lean against you and wait for you to pet her. To her, a stranger is just a friend she hasn't met yet. She's great with everybody, including three grandchildren who have been a bit rambunctious at times.
My German Shorthair was like that. Everybody whether outside for a walk or coming to the house was there to see him, and pet him. He wanted everyone to play with him. He never snapped at anyone, ever. He sought out affection, and attention from people.
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