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And just because you are in the medical field does not make your opinion any more valid than the rest of us. Many of us are actively involved in dog rescues, have pets of our own, or are trainers ourselves. That's fine that you are a vet, I congratulate you on the achievement , but until you can train a rampaging Pit Bull to become a docile companion, I think you should save the criticism.
I just wanted to clear up one thing. I am a registered veterinary technician, not a veterinarian, though I do have pets of my own and have a decent background in animal behavior. Not to mention years of experience with many wonderful and a few dangerous patients. Wouldn't want to give people the wrong impression. And yeah, that does make me pretty qualified to recognize an animal in distress. But I'm done with this thread. I will not change your mind and you will certainly not change mine. I'm pretty comfortable saying that I will never endorse or approve training methods that involve strangulation.
Cesar does not work with German Shepherd pups ready to be police dogs. He works with out of control aggressive adult dogs (rescues in many cases), who are dominating the household. There is a big difference.
and so do many positive trainers.
pat miller trains dogs AT a rescue. patricia mcconnell specializes in extremely aggressive cases. so does turid rugaas.
to cite another example from tv, the absolute worst cases among michael vick's dogs, pit bulls who were aggressive towards both dogs and humans, were rehabilitated using purely positive methods at best friends animal rescue. how do you explain that?
regarding the kick/tap/whatever, it's awfully anthropomorphic to talk about what kind of reaction was "warranted". there's no value judgment about what a dog does - it just does what it does. the dog was hyped up by the other dog and was about to become aggressive for sure. what millan did set it off and turned its aggression towards him, whether or not you think it was morally justified for the dog to do that. he had the option to try to defuse the situation and did not take an action that could have achieved that.
and whatever you think of the kick, there is no denying that he was hanging that dog by the neck, and THAT is what got millan bitten.
i don't get the comparison to natural diets - that is something relatively new. millan's methods are a throwback to old, outdated ideas. the wolf studies he bases his ideas about pack structure on are long since discredited. many of the trainers who pioneered his methods (like the monks of new skete) have since disavowed them. this is more comparable to resisting a return to bleeding as a cure for disease. or i guess it is comparable to resistance to natural foods, but millan's the one pushing alpo.
also, in defense of kansas sky, he did not offer a training opinion, he offered a medical opinion, which it seems he is perfectly qualified to do. (edit: er, or she!)
Groar - Like I have stated before, I use positive methods and I think positive reinforcement is very useful. I will have to do more research into the examples that you state, and the trainers that you mention. I am looking into getting certified, so I am not willing to write anything off without first knowing more about it.
I think we both have valid opinions. Although you never did address why many of Cesar's clients turn to him after going through other behaviorist trainers. I stand by Cesar. I think he has a natural ability that many trainers just don't have. And like I stated before, many are threatened by his popularity and so they vehemently attack him. And you can site trainers who are against him, but I can site just as many who support him. Like I stated, many in the rescue field are excited about him, because he offers hope to our dogs who have yet to be properly socialized.
And about the Michael Vick dogs - have they all been rehabilitated? I just looked at the Best Friend's sight and only one dog has been adopted. (?) And from one of the clips I saw, Meryl, almost bit off someone's hand. I wouldn't call it a victory just yet.
it's hard to say exactly what owners have really done when they say they've "tried everything". it doesn't mean they've gone to a reputable positive trainer.
i do agree with you that millan seems to have a natural gift with dogs. but that also means that the majority of people who don't have a gift like that can't replicate his methods.
i actually first heard of millan during volunteer orientation at an open door shelter, by the way. the woman leading the orientation, who rehabilitates "unadoptable" pit bulls, was teaching us about ways volunteers can train the dogs and cautioned against using his methods.
victoria stilwell is almost as famous as millan, but still, the trainers i've talked to in the positive reinforcement camp all have nothing but praise for her, as a positive trainer who's getting the message out to people through her tv program. they're also super excited any time a positive trainer is on tv, like on dogtown or underdog to wonderdog. so i really don't think it's about being resentful of millan's popularity - they just honestly think his methods are harmful. and yes, because of that they're upset that he's so popular, but they don't dislike him just because he's popular.
what it comes down to, is i believe millan's methods work for the most part, but at a high potential cost to the dog's psyche, health, and your relationship with the dog. positive methods work too, without those costs.
that is an interesting point about the vick dogs, i'm not sure. i'll have to look into it. i'm not sure if the dogs, having a history of violence, would be allowed to be adopted out even if they are rehabilitated.
i looked at the information on the best friends site too, and all of vick's dogs have a lot of conditions on their adoptions, including achieving canine good citizen certification and living with the potential family for 6 months without incident. with all of those conditions, it's not surprising that the first dog is only being officially adopted a year and a half later. i'd be curious to know how many are in foster care or living with potential adopters right now.
as for meryl biting someone, was that in the dogtown show about the vick dogs, or elsewhere? was it a recent video? is it online so i can see it for myself?
truly rehabilitating a dog takes time, which is something that an uninformed viewer would NOT take from millan's show. that's another thing i like about stilwell's show, actually - the emphasis on not just fixing the problems right then, but going away and coming back to see if the owner is continuing the training, and showing what happens if they do AND if they don't.
When I took my dog to obedience classes, the trainer there too cautioned against some of his methods. Some of the positive reinforcement worked for my dog, but some didn't. My dog is pretty smart, so instead of being conditioned by the treats, she would just do what I wanted her to do for the treats and then go right back to her normal behavior.
And I've seen Victoria on TV and like her as well. But I disagree that she uses all "positive" methods. For one episode she used a blow horn type thing to keep this dog from jumping on her. So my question is, how is harming a dog's hearing any better than what Cesar uses? Surely a blow horn is negative reinforcement! And secondly, not all of her methods work. I watched one episode where she tried to keep some pugs from eating their own poop. She tried and tried to no avail. I don't know why she didn't just recommend that they supplement their diet. It was pretty obvious those dogs were lacking in something. But I guess they will have to settle for their own poop.
So yes, positive reinforcement does work in some cases. We can agree on that. But we disagree on the other. I have to say I think you are exagerating when you claim that the methods Cesar uses damages the relationship between owner and dog. I have three dogs. The oldest and "alpha" if you will, does not like one of the other dogs. They get along ok, but every once and a while the oldest will snap at the other. Usually in relation to having my attention, or food. From watching Cesar's show I have learned to read her body signs very well, so I know when she is being dominant/possessive and getting ready to snap. I correct her before it escalates. I usually just use my voice and she responds without any problems. This has lessened the incidents between them substantially. And I don't think this has harmed our relationship in any way. If anything this has made it better because the dogs know I am not merely an observer but actively involved in their interactions.
as for meryl biting someone, was that in the dogtown show about the vick dogs, or elsewhere? was it a recent video? is it online so i can see it for myself?
truly rehabilitating a dog takes time, which is something that an uninformed viewer would NOT take from millan's show. that's another thing i like about stilwell's show, actually - the emphasis on not just fixing the problems right then, but going away and coming back to see if the owner is continuing the training, and showing what happens if they do AND if they don't.
Groar - I found the clip on the NatGeo sight. And I am aware that rehabilitating dogs takes time. But if it takes TOO much time the dog is at risk of degenerating and being euthanized (killed). I know this from experience from working in dog rescues. If the dog is in a shelter too long, and cannot be placed in a foster for whatever reason (no fosters, dangerous behavior) the dog will start to get worse and worse. They call it degenerating, I call it going crazy from confinement! At this point, the dog will be put down. This is the practice even at shelters with a "no kill" policy! And this is with positive reinforcement training, daily walks and constant interaction!
there's a reason i said it was *potentially* damaging.
it depends on the dog and the person. not everyone who uses millan's methods is going to end up with a dog who is afraid of them, or a dog who bottles up aggression and then eventually explodes but it's a risk. it seems to me, from my experience training my dog and from reading and talking to people with a wide variety of training philosophies, that positive methods make a dog not want to do negative behaviors in the first place, while negative ones suppress the behaviors after they happen.
here is the association of pet dog trainer's position statement on "dog friendly" training:
“Dog-friendly training is training that utilizes primarily positive reinforcement; secondarily negative punishment, and only occasionally, rarely, and/or as a last resort includes positive punishment and/or negative reinforcement.”
you are probably familiar with the 4 quadrants of training, but for anyone else reading this:
positive reinforcement = good thing starts when the dog does something right
negative punishment = good thing ends when the dog does something wrong
positive punishment = bad thing starts when the dog does something wrong
negative reinforcement = bad thing ends when the dog does something right
millan uses the last 2 a lot more than "as a last resort".
i didn't know about stilwell using an air horn; i'd agree with you that that is not positive training.
it does seem like millan's become more positive the last few years. i even saw him using a clicker! but until he stops doing and completely disavows things like pulling dogs up by their leashes and "alpha rolls", he's still doing damage.
meryl link: National Geographic Channel Videos Watch Animals, Dog Whisperer, Adventure, Science and History Videos (http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/channel/videos/player.html?title=05658_00&source=email_ctw_200809 02&email=ctw - broken link)
thank you for the link!
that footage appears to be before she's had any sort of training, so i don't see how it proves anything either way about the methods they use at dogtown.
remember, in the clip i posted earlier, millan actually *was* bitten!
Groar - The dog had had training prior to be taken out. The person taking the dog out of the pen was, I am assuming, her trainer. If the dog had not had training why would they let someone come up to her and pet her?
I think it proves that for one, despite being experts, they were not able to read her body language well enough to know she was about to bite. And two, the dog despite positive training was still very dangerous. All that in addition to the fact that she will never be able to be fostered or adopted (court decided) makes the future of that dog very dim. You can paint it anyway you please, but I have seen dogs who have been in shelters for years and they are not happy, healthy dogs. They are dogs that hanging onto their sanity by a thread.
And yes the dog bit Cesar, but that was before he had a chance to work with him. And two, he could read the dog's body language to know it was coming. He was ready. In that clip, it was obvious no one with the dog was ready. In fact, they were still trying to make sense of it after it happened.
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, but until you can train a rampaging Pit Bull to become a docile companion, I think you should save the criticism.
And yeah, that does make me pretty qualified to recognize an animal in distress. But I'm done with this thread. I will not change your mind and you will certainly not change mine. I'm pretty comfortable saying that I will never endorse or approve training methods that involve strangulation.
