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This post peddles nearly every negative stereotype of the working class I can think of. Poor, fat, uneducated, ignorant, etc. Way to go.
My apologies if I didn't make my initial post clear. I certainly didn't write it as a put down of working-class people or with the intention of having conclusively defined the lifestyle of every working class person in America; it was simply a frank post reflecting my own upbringing and the attitudes I witnessed in my own family, and which I've observed in other working-class families. Why would I be condescending towards the people with whom I was raised? Many of these perspectives still manifest themselves in my behavior today.
I'm not ashamed of the fact that I grew up eating donuts by the dozen and drinking soda like water, to give but one real world example, but that's not something I'm snarkily mocking and pointing my finger at --- on the contrary, that's how my siblings and I (and many of our peers) really grew up!
You seem to be approaching this as a social scientist or activist (or commodities trader?) who is righteously battling against stereotypes and oppression, so kudos to you, I guess. But your response seems to have missed the mark, methinks.
I do not think that the OP was bashing working class or blue collar people at all. As a Sociologist, examining how people behave in groups, is what we do.
There is a major US research university with graduate degrees in Working Class Studies. We do have classes in America. Our problem? No one, with the exception of academics wants to accept that. There may be others. I am only studying at one.
When we accept class as a realty in the U.S., apart from wealth and they are very different, we can begin to see how important this topic is.
My apologies if I didn't make my initial post clear. I certainly didn't write it as a put down of working-class people or with the intention of having conclusively defined the lifestyle of every working class person in America; it was simply a frank post reflecting my own upbringing and the attitudes I witnessed in my own family, and which I've observed in other working-class families. Why would I be condescending towards the people with whom I was raised? Many of these perspectives still manifest themselves in my behavior today.
I'm not ashamed of the fact that I grew up eating donuts by the dozen and drinking soda like water, to give but one real world example, but that's not something I'm snarkily mocking and pointing my finger at --- on the contrary, that's how my siblings and I (and many of our peers) really grew up!
You seem to be approaching this as a social scientist or activist (or commodities trader?) who is righteously battling against stereotypes and oppression, so kudos to you, I guess. But your response seems to have missed the mark, methinks.
Way to go, indeed!
What you posted was completely insulting whether you intended it to be or not. I don't know why you would be so condescending, but your stereotypes conjured an image of fat, white, Appalachian trash, stuffing their faces with cheap junk food and cheap beer, bloated out on the front porch. It's not a pleasant thought. Maybe I grew up in an even rougher environment than you did, but I found your OP offensive. You didn't post what you thought with any level of restraint, tact, or decorum.
Read that first post. Read it as someone who grew up in rural Tennessee, in a hellhole town eat up in crime and poverty. I live in Kingsport TN. Our crime is worse than Memphis. Worse than Kansas City. We really do have people who are just like your stereotype and relish in it. However, many of us do not live that way, even though we are poor and working class, and do better. I can't remember the last time I ate McDonald's. I'm guilty of eating the local BBQ, which is still bad, but I don't eat at the fast food chains. I don't drink the full calorie Cokes. I don't buy huge bags of potato chips. I eat reasonably healthy - even though my income and occupation are working class right now. I don't know anyone personally in the working class who gladly devours donuts, Cokes, and other junk food. If you did that and didn't realize it made you feel awful, I'm sorry. Any working class person could find decent dietary information with either a cheap computer or smartphone.
I'm not a social scientist nor a professional trader. Because I grew up and went to college in rural Tennessee, none of those intellectual jobs were afforded to me, because none of the jobs are available locally, and my alma mater couldn't make professional connections outside the area. I do happen to be an intelligent person and responsible citizen that constantly has to explain and make up for the handicap of being born and raised in rural Tennessee, which is a handicap, in my opinion, to being mildly retarded. Given the perspectives of how I was born and raised, I don't think I've missed any kind of factual or real mark. Maybe I don't meet your standards or the standards of the posters in this thread, but oh well, I don't really care.
I have heard the same (and witnessed it as well) but the other perspective is that the educated classes are heavily involved in their children's education that they're willing to challenge the authority of teachers if they perceive something is wrong or if they think the child isn't getting the quality of teaching he/she needs. Teachers, from the perspective of the upper middle classes, are actually fairly low on the totem pole so the unhappy parents don't have qualms in arranging multiple meetings with teachers, directly challenging them in person or bypassing them by going straight to the principal.
But this doesn't mean that the same parents who blame the teachers are willing to let the little angel slide through years of mediocre grades or pretend it's always the teacher's fault. The kid at home is also going to suffer from the same pressures the parents put on the teachers. Educational success is important among the professional classes, much more so than among the traditional working classes.
Back in the 1970s my wife taught for several years in two different communities - a working class, industrial based community and then in an upper middle class "educated" suburb. She loved the working class parents who frequently told her not to hesitate to give little Johnny a whack with her hand if he misbehaved, and if that didn't work, to let them know and they'd "take care" of it at home. But the same working class parents were also perfectly happy with passing grades, rather than solid As and Bs. The upper middle class suburb was the reverse. Handle the children with kid gloves and if their grades slipped a notch from A to A- the parents were on the phone demanding to know why.
Quote:
Originally Posted by karen_in_nh_2012
Hmmm. Anecdotally, from what I've heard from teachers, UPPER-MIDDLE-CLASS and MIDDLE-CLASS parents are much more likely to blame the teacher if their angel, say, fails a class. Many working-class parents might be a bit intimidated by teachers since they have a lot more education. Again, this is simply anecdotal; I would bet there is social science research on it, but I haven't looked specifically.
I don't know anyone personally in the working class who gladly devours donuts, Cokes, and other junk food. If you did that and didn't realize it made you feel awful, I'm sorry. Any working class person could find decent dietary information with either a cheap computer or smartphone.
Heh, kind of what I was thinking as well. I don't really know what is considered a working class vs middle class upbringing. Both of my parents worked and had little time for me growing up. I guess they made a middle class income, and they lived in a low crime yet budget friendly working class community, but it took a lot of work to pay the bills. I would also suggest their jobs would have probably made them working class. Neither one went to college, but they were responsible, hard working adults who could pay the bills and meet the needs of their family without any form of assistance.
My mother and father took turns cooking the meals, and cooked enough to leave leftovers for a couple days. We always ate plenty of salads and veggies, some of which we grew. Dad wasn't much of a drinker, maybe a beer at a family function or something. Mom avoided drinking because of a family predisposition to alcoholism. Once I was old enough to work a stove, I learned how to cook a lot of things on my own, which helped take the burden off them. Same thing with yard work like cutting the grass. My dad also made sure to teach me the basics of maintaining the integrity of the home. Everything from replacing shingles to putting up siding. Most importantly, my father instilled a certain pride in workmanship and work ethic that really gave me a leg up later on in the private sector.
I came from a working class environment in spirit, if not entirely. I would be the last to claim that served as a disadvantage.
One of the issues with classes in the U.S. is that they are very fluid. It's not that we deny they exist, but since you can move up and down, it's hard to "peg" people like they can in other societies where class is predetermined.
I've seen people with educated parents live at poverty level for various reasons. I've seen uneducated people climb up social classes - and we've all seen a variety of combinations.
OP, you mentioned some funny examples that may have some truth to them, depending on the person's upbringing. I know some upper middle families that do not know the first thing about manners in social situations and I know some less affluent people who are REAL sticklers for good manners.
It's okay to look at the tendencies for a few laughs, but just when you think you're sure you know a behavior pattern, you'll be proven wrong.
Read that first post. Read it as someone who grew up in rural Tennessee, in a hellhole town eat up in crime and poverty.
I see where you're coming from, Emigrations, and you clearly have some strong personal convictions about this issue. One of the disadvantages of forums like this is that, unlike conversations in person, nuance is lost (and emoticons just don't cut it). We don't know each other, so you don't know that we really have a lot in common. You don't know that I'm the last person who would put down working people, especially those that defy stereotypes.
These observations, stereotypical or not, reflect my actual experiences. I was a National Merit Scholar, but I never finished college. When my dad got laid off, my parents honestly couldn't help me with the applications, as they had never gone to university. Crappy food was, like cigarettes, essentially a coping mechanism, used as a drug to relieve the stress of daily life. I watched far more TV in my first 10 years than in the 30 + years since. My folks didn't drink, thankfully, in part because alcoholism runs in my family, and they knew the dangers. My family moved over twenty times because my dad was always looking for a better job. Although I always dress up for job interviews, I've had two middle-class acquaintances (talk about well-intentioned condescension) remind me to wear a tie.
And I glad you've always avoided negative "stereotypical" working class behavior, and yet it stinks that you still have to face a lot of frustration in daily life. Best of luck to you (I'm being serious, not sarcastic).
Last edited by St. Josef the Chewable; 05-04-2013 at 08:39 AM..
Reason: misuse of term
I think the most conspicuous indicator is, people with a working-class background ask the price of something before they buy it. The price is an indicator of how many hours of your life you have to spend working in order to pay for it.
I think the most conspicuous indicator is, people with a working-class background ask the price of something before they buy it. The price is an indicator of how many hours of your life you have to spend working in order to pay for it.
That's true. When my wife and I go in a shop and there are no prices indicated, it's clearly not our kind of place. "If you gotta ask the price ..."
And when my working class mother-in-law, who speaks no English, came to visit, the first two phrases she learned were "How much?" and "Too much"!
The obvious is being stated here, of course the upper class has a lot going for them and that drives a more positive attitude. Blaming someone else for ones problems isn't a mark of the poor as much as it is a mark of those who can't seem to get it together, period. America's rural poor aren't the same poor as those in the cities, they are for the most part the working poor, and seldom take a handout without some accompanying social pain. Rural poor means that you are those people who get pushed aside by the local uppers AND the authoritative types from government. Yes, they do feel as though they get the short shrift from those who are supposed to be helping them, and in fact they usually are. Many upper class kids are failing to connect the dots because their parents are there to prop them up at every turn, but, of course they "do better" in life because of this constant attention they receive...
One size doesn't fit all love. My friend died and left her son a millionaire. He had every advantage including the option of college. He chose instead to pursue a part time job so he could sit around and smoke pot all day long. His Aunt manages his money lest he go through it like water and become homeless some day. He had constant attention and smother love to the point that he is now helpless. When his elderly Aunt passes and he gets his hands on the money I'm sure it will be gone soon after. I grew up poor and became shrewd at a young age in order to survive a very toxic childhood and rose to be very comfortable financially. Spot on about the remark about being poor is the result about not being able to get it together.
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