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The first example is making bad choices. Things like divorce and severe injury and illness are not. However, in th case of divorce, it is the responsibility of the divorcees to then make good choices.
Except that if they didn't require two incomes for the mortgage then the divorce would not have pushed them into penury. It all seems rosy at first, (almost) no one thinks divorce will happen to them.
I believe that for the most part, people are where they are because of decisions they have made along the way. Of course there are exceptions, but failure to obtain an education (with a viable skill set), smoking, drinking, gambling (as previously noted), blowing all your money, having children and pets they couldn't afford, are sure ways to a life of poverty. I grew up in NE Ohio, lower middle class. My friends made decisions that to this day have left them struggling. I joined the Army so I could get an education paid for. After I got out, my friends were still doing what they always did-I went to two different colleges for 8 years getting an education in Electrical Engineering, Economics and Business. As difficult as it was, I also worked full time while going to school. On the other hand, my friends, who for the most part are as intelligent as myself, didn't get an education or marketable skills. Some have been on government assistance of one type or another for more than 30 years and the others are dead from their bad habits. They had every opportunity to make the same exact choices I did yet they will go to their graves poor, with others paying their way- I will not.
Now, should we be responsible for those who make poor decisions over and over? Our government has made them comfortable by providing their needs. They all have autos, phones, roof over their head.
I agree with Ben Franklin. “I am for doing good to the poor, but...I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. I observed...that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer.”
I was born to a middle class family. My mother made the choice for my siblings and I to send us into poverty to escape the abuse of my father. We initially survived on government cheese and the charity of family and friends. My mom worked two jobs through most of my childhood. When my siblings and I were old enough to get work (age 12 at that time), we took what odds-and-ends jobs we could get. I did everything from door-to-door sales to paper routes to lawn care all the way up to age 16 when I could get a federally recognized job. Through high school I worked three jobs.
I once told a co-worker where I was born and their reaction was "How in the *bleep* did you get out of there?" I accredit it to my mother's bravery and wisdom to always advance our poverty. Every time we got a little above the income level of others in our area, we moved to some place with better prospects. We chose to put ourselves back into poverty to have a greater earning potential and better schools. Through successive moves, she was able to keep us fed, clothed, and educated. In the end, my siblings and I all made our way into the middle class. My mom lives comfortably in her own (small) home in a nice community. She's still working, even though she could retire. She still lives like she is just one step above poverty, saving for the future. There is always a little more to reach for.
To escape poverty, you have to have a plan. However, they don't always work out. My first home was in a nice neighborhood of retirees. The houses were plain but solid. The yards were kept and the kids were safe to play in the street. As the years passed, the retirees either sold and moved away or just passed away. The houses were bought up as rental properties, turned into section 8 housing, and my investment and neighborhood went to crap. Someone else's get-rich-plan, screwed my get-ahead-plan.
I eventually sold, took some time to rebuild (while renting), and found my way back to a nice neighborhood in a new place. And I have done it again and again as I could.
Not everyone who lives next to the Dominos and Dollar General was always poor, nor will they always be poor. However, they all choose to be where they are and have to choose not to stay there.
I tried the military route initially too. I used neither the skills nor the money earned to get ahead. Bad choices are bad choices. When ever a young person talks about joining-up, I always encourage them to NOT choose what their recruiter says and to think about what MOS will get them a job AFTER the military.
I would also encourage anyone thinking of getting married to base the decision at least partially on credit score. You are making one of the biggest financial decisions of your life getting married. My first marriage took me 8 years to recover from financially. Thankfully, I had my mother's example to fall back on.
The advice to acquire only the mortgage you can afford on one income is solid advice. Things go terribly wrong and in this day-and-age of outsourcing or off-shoring, no one's income is guaranteed.
I do think there is a cultural and economic component to poverty. If no one you know has ever gotten out and you have no mentor, it's hard to find the path out. My maternal grandmother lived through the Great Depression. It was her example that guided my mother and I. Now I'm here on the Economics forum of City Data trying to figure out the next step.
Of course it is people's choices that make them poor, it is just that most people do not know the choices they make will make them poor until they get there.
Not everyone has the education, aptitude or cultural upbringing to make the correct choices in life.
I believe that for the most part, people are where they are because of decisions they have made along the way. Of course there are exceptions, but failure to obtain an education (with a viable skill set), smoking, drinking, gambling (as previously noted), blowing all your money, having children and pets they couldn't afford, are sure ways to a life of poverty. I grew up in NE Ohio, lower middle class. My friends made decisions that to this day have left them struggling. I joined the Army so I could get an education paid for. After I got out, my friends were still doing what they always did-I went to two different colleges for 8 years getting an education in Electrical Engineering, Economics and Business. As difficult as it was, I also worked full time while going to school. On the other hand, my friends, who for the most part are as intelligent as myself, didn't get an education or marketable skills. Some have been on government assistance of one type or another for more than 30 years and the others are dead from their bad habits. They had every opportunity to make the same exact choices I did yet they will go to their graves poor, with others paying their way- I will not.
Now, should we be responsible for those who make poor decisions over and over? Our government has made them comfortable by providing their needs. They all have autos, phones, roof over their head.
I agree with Ben Franklin. “I am for doing good to the poor, but...I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. I observed...that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer.”
In his day, people could succeed or fail on their own merits without need for expensive government licensure or certification.
Certainly most people don't choose to be poor. Of course if you grew up in the ghettoes of Detroit you may not even know you are. But some indeed take a vow of poverty, maybe to avoid temptation, or for religious reasons.
Location: New Albany, Indiana (Greater Louisville)
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Average IQ in a population is a Bell Curve, meaning around 1/3 are significantly below, 1/3 are average, 1/3 are significantly above. This is not commonly said but not everyone has the best case scenario to be Einstein. Many people are not capable or doing anything more than menial labor. Our version of capitalism is complex, which puts low IQ people at a disadvantage. They don't do well at understanding fine print, they lack self discipline needed to not buy everything marketed at you, they are more likely to get into financial problems and get a bad credit score, etc. In America it is common for poor people, who want to feel respected, to waste money on things they don't need but make people respect them like fancy cars, shoes, etc. I like across from a low income White working class couple who often argue in the front yard. They recently bought two fancy cars but didn't have a washer and dryer that worked. By contrast my wife and I make more money (i'd guess) they them but we have older cars but a washer and dryer.
The other issue is job quality distribution is also a bell curve. Theoretically if every America had a medical degree there would be the same number of fast workers, clerks, doctors, etc. Increased education didn't change the fact that someone still has to pick up the trash or flip that burger. Point being it's not possible for everyone to avoid a low paying job. An individual can improve their marketability and move on from such a job but someone else must fill the job they left.
Re housing income segregation... I come from a mostly rural and poor family. Most people in my family would feel very out of place in an affluent urban neighborhood even if it statistically improved their health and income. They would rather live somewhere where they aren't looked down on.
Our version of capitalism is complex, which puts low IQ people at a disadvantage. They don't do well at understanding fine print, they lack self discipline needed to not buy everything marketed at you, they are more likely to get into financial problems and get a bad credit score, etc. In America it is common for poor people, who want to feel respected, to waste money on things they don't need but make people respect them like fancy cars, shoes, etc. I like across from a low income White working class couple who often argue in the front yard. They recently bought two fancy cars but didn't have a washer and dryer that worked. By contrast my wife and I make more money (i'd guess) they them but we have older cars but a washer and dryer.
I don't agree that the flashy lifestyle of some low income people has to do with low IQ. I believe it is the opposite, they figure out how to use the system to their advantage. Low income people should not be able to afford two fancy cars, they know that but they wanted the cars so they found a way to acquire them, even if just temporarily. People did this with mortgages leading to the crash, they do it with government benefits, etc.
Many intelligent people would have no idea how to work the system but plenty of low income (less intelligent?) know all the ins and outs to have a higher end lifestyle than they can afford. It is workers, savers, frugal common sense types who work hard and deprive ourselves that fund those lifestyles. Now who is stupid.
I don't agree that the flashy lifestyle of some low income people has to do with low IQ. I believe it is the opposite, they figure out how to use the system to their advantage. Low income people should not be able to afford two fancy cars, they know that but they wanted the cars so they found a way to acquire them, even if just temporarily. People did this with mortgages leading to the crash, they do it with government benefits, etc.
Many intelligent people would have no idea how to work the system but plenty of low income (less intelligent?) know all the ins and outs to have a higher end lifestyle than they can afford. It is workers, savers, frugal common sense types who work hard and deprive ourselves that fund those lifestyles. Now who is stupid.
True for sure. There are different types of intelligence too of course. There are many people that might not be 'book smart' , but they know how to influence or persuade people to get what they want.
If one can 'borrow' or use others is there even really a need for income?
How many people are living with others , sometimes in really nice areas or homes and not paying rent?
There is a lot of this in L.A, where someone will keep someone around as a friend/hanger on because they find them amusing.
Look at a show like Entourage , but it happens in reality too.
In terms of things like luxury cars, their value can drop super quick.
Economy cars or brands aren't just more economical to buy new....but also when it comes to repairs.
Of course someone that wants a flashy car now doesn't think much or care that the repair costs will be more for a Mercedes versus a Honda.
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