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They are sending more proposals now and the EU is finally talking about debt relief. If Greece gets debt relief you can bet that Podemos in Spain is next to ask for the same thing. That will start the breakdown of the entire system.
The breakdown has already occurred in a system that leaves half its members in dire straits. This "crisis" is entirely the fault of the EU fat cats who failed first to understand, and then to respond to, the plain implications of what they were doing.
The breakdown has already occurred in a system that leaves half its members in dire straits. This "crisis" is entirely the fault of the EU fat cats who failed first to understand, and then to respond to, the plain implications of what they were doing.
Go ahead and blame the victims. The so-called "fat cats" have been the ones providing money for the bailouts to governments which have been irresponsible: How fair is that to their taxpayers? And now many are saying that these "fat cats" should just forgive much of what they are owed. Would you be so quick to "forgive" the debt if I owed you money? Article just this morning in the Los Angeles Times to the effect that the other previous recipients of bailouts in Europe (Ireland, Spain, Portugal, Cypress) are actually not doing too badly and are improving economically.
Don't do the crime if you can't do the time. The EU fat cats screwed up from the get go, and now they expect the people of Greece to pay for it? It's not like big money is involved here. It's just big and badly mistaken egos. Fie on them and the horse they rode in on.
Greece has an answer for all that: default and return to the Drachma. Germany can't do anything to stop that. Yet the Greeks overwhelmingly don't want that.
Probably because you've never been to Greece and don't know anything of the history of Greece, including the complicit role the US played historically backing puppet-dictators in Greece.
When I was in Greece, $1 = 380 Drachma.
That's how bad it was. Many Greeks remember.
You can bet a new Drachma will debut at $1 = 200 - 350 Drachma.
How does that solve Greece's problems? It doesn't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by k374
They are sending more proposals now and the EU is finally talking about debt relief. If Greece gets debt relief you can bet that Podemos in Spain is next to ask for the same thing. That will start the breakdown of the entire system.
Debt Relief will not solve the problem.
Greece has to cut spending permanently, by reducing salaries and benefits for government employees and for pensioners, plus Greece needs to reduce it's military to the size of Iceland.
I don't believe they will come to an agreement where Greece stays in the Eurozone. They never should have been in to be begin with.
Greece has to have debt cuts and restructuring. The people have overwhelmingly supported this. Tsipras would be crazy to accept anything less. But he just might do it. I don't know if this guy is really that crazy smart or if he is really stupid. We will find out soon. He constantly pitches spending cuts just below what the troika is asking, calling their bluff not to back down and making them look like unreasonable bullies.
Germany cannot give Greece debt cuts. I don't care how much they talk about it. Until they actually do it, I don't believe it. Merkel couldn't give the needed debt cuts even if she wanted to. She would suffer too much politically as her own party would revolt.
These 2 have talked themselves into a situation impossible for either to win. Tsipras got the surprise of his life when the people and most of the parties backed him. Merkel has drummed up her support and whipped them into a frenzy about not giving the lazy Greeks any kind of debt forgiveness. The political fallout and the specter of Italy, Portugal and Spain each coming to the table with the same demands is too much for the EU and she knows it.
France has caved and has now joined the US and UK in bringing political influence to bear trying to get Germany to agree to a debt cut. This has further isolated Merkel and Germany.
Even with all the feel good news, either Tsipras will accept all demands without any substantial debt cutting and betray the Greek people OR they will exit the Eurozone and bring back the Drachma and dictate the debt repayment themselves.
Reports indicate that the Greeks have caved in finally and agreed to all the austerity measures. I guess they just can't give up the comfort of the Euro!
Yes every government seems to borrow money but the vast majority manage to pay those debts. If that did not happen, no one would buy the bonds or otherwise loan the money. Some countries have borrowed too much and tried to solve the problem by printing more money. That rarely works and instead leads to run away inflation and a failed economy.
No, you are missing the point. Every sovereign government "borrows" money the same way, by issuing it as a debt. They always pay it back because it is in their own currency. Greece doesn't have its own currency anymore.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrkliny
Who is raiding the pockets and pensions of the Greek people? Those pensions and social benefits, long vacations and poor productivity have been propped up by the EU. Now the bills are due.
Germany.
Those pensions and social benefits can no longer be paid out by the same government that issued them. The ECB controls Greece now, which is the whole problem.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rapier7
Spain, the UK, Ireland, and Portugal were all forced to undergo austerity as well. They turned out fine. The difference between those countries and Greece is that their workforce is vastly more productive and hardworking than their Greek counterparts.
Both France and Germany would prefer for Greece to stay in the Eurozone, but not at any price. Both are willing to continue fiscal transfers to the country but only if it is willing to confront fiscal reality and cut its bloated, pension-riddled budget.
Of course they would, they are making out like bandits off their Greek pensions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobNJ1960
The EU will be better off no longer propping up Greece. W/O the EU, they have the GDP of Gilligan's Island in a few months.
No, it won't. Once Greece leaves, other smaller countries will follow and the gravy train is over for the criminal bankers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrkliny
Those great people of Greece have been living beyond their means and they keep asking for more handouts.
Ha! Ha.
Let's paint a simple picture for you to understand. You are a teacher / cop / firefighter. You retired and receive your pension in U.S. dollars. Suddenly, the U.S. government cedes its currency rights over to bitcoin. Bitcoin then tells the U.S. government to either cut your pension by 30% or **** off.
Their corrupt politicians and socialist policies have nearly burned Greece to the ground, and the Euro poured gasoline on the fire.
It won't take decades to rebuild if they leave the Eurozone. They have a lot going for them. They have undergone a lot of belt tightening and purged a lot of corruption. Once they get everything under control the Tourists will flock to it at a discount price. EU will import more of their Ag products. Their shipping industry has them in a good position to export EU goods.
Cobbling together competent leadership is gonna be their biggest pitfall. Which I admit is gonna be tough for them to pull off.
If they stay in the Eurozone or they double down on stupid (socialism) they will never dig their way out.
When I see socialism fail on such a grand scale I like to be optimistic that capitalism will free the people and lift them up and out of misery. Not pile on more misery.
It is your deluded view of "capitalism" (aka, bankers robbing honest workers) that is the problem with the world in the 21st century. "Socialism" had nothing to do with Greece's problems. It was a poor economical decision to relinquish monetary sovereignty.
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