Jobs of the future - "green" jobs pay scale lower (calculate, money)

[user_id]

Originally Posted by kathys

I just had a water pump put on that was $260, a month later brakes and had to have radiator flushed out that cost me $465.

I included maintenance costs in my budget. Obviously, these are to some degree unpredictable.

Originally Posted by kathys

I don't have my phone bill handy, but I would like to know how I can get the phone for $20.

I just went to the AT&T website and entered a zip code from your area. The price was $19~$40. $40 was for unlimited long distance etc.

Personally, I have not had a land line for a good 5 years. When I did last it was in Pennsylvania and it was $28 (including taxes, fees, etc).

Originally Posted by kathys

Oh and having wood floors makes homes colder in winter.I grew up with them.

Wood floors really don't keep your house warmer, its more so an illusion of warmth as the wood floor feels colder on your feet. Although, it would depend on your foundation, but any actual benefit would be pretty marginal.

Originally Posted by kathys

How long are your washers, refrigorator, furnace, water heaters going to last? What about furniture. I need a new bed, how much is that?

Again, I included maintenance into the costs.

Originally Posted by kathys

Right now they are having record heat in the rust belt area-midwest. It does'nt get that hot?

Yes, "record heat". On average it is not that hot in the rust-belt, you can do just fine with minimal air conditioning. I lived just fine for 2 years without an air conditioner in the area.

Originally Posted by kathys

I live right off the water, right near Lake St Clair, by Detroit. I would love for you to see the $10,000 homes. They have holes in the ceilings...

I have lived in the rust-belt, I know exactly what the housing is like in the area. But what is your point exactly? I'm talking about housing in the $60k range.

[ufcrules1]

Originally Posted by kathys

Did you include just the taxes and fees on the utilities? It is like a quarter of the bill where I live. I would love to pay a flat $20 on my basic phone bill. I am paying close to $40 and about $15 is fees and taxes.
Those 60K houses usually need a roof at some point, bad pipes,wiring appliances that are ancient. Carpet that is usually the original that came with the place.
I just bought a lawnmower that was $200.
My car insurance for an old beat up truck is $230 every six months, then there is the plates, registration, and license.
My gas bill this winter was over $200 for about four months, and that was with the thermostat at 66.
Great news today, our water bill is going up over 100 a year. Seems they have to replace the pipes in the city.

Why are you using a landline? I have not used one for about 7 years now. I'm assuming you have high speed cable.. you could be using VOIP.COM and paying $200 a year which is $16 a month (including taxes). You are paying too much!

[Randomdude]

Originally Posted by user_id

They are not the same issue. There are natural barriers to entry, like having the necessary capital, etc and there are government related barriers. The two are rather different. You can't pretend as if Walmart is being "evil" in some way because there are natural barriers to entry. Has Walmart tried to get regulations past that would block out competitors, etc? No. There are only natural barriers.

I could care less how you are defining "barriers", they are still barriers. You can flip two tails coin 5000 different ways, its still landing up tails in the morning.

Originally Posted by user_id

Yeah, they are effected by prices in general, which is exactly the point

No. A single pair of pants, at a store, will be affected by nothing other then the profit margin. Assuming the mark up is exactly the same (which is the only variable), you can judge the exact wholesale price of the jeans.

When you judge 10 million stores, dozens of new things get introduced. New stores, different demographics, differing transportation costs, the list is ENDLESS. Even comparing aggragrate prices from two different points would be impossible to determine the wholesale price of the jeans.

Originally Posted by user_id

You can't look at income to determine poverty, you need to look at standard of living.

Well then you are comparing apples to oranges.

Originally Posted by user_id

Which is exactly why there is a distinction between land and capital which you can indeed "just make". Capital is just stored up labor, land is something different. Most theorists have made the distinction between the two.

Land is a means of production. A capitalist is one who owns the means or factors of production. I dont know why you are arguing that land isnt capital, since I never claimed it was, and, it isnt even applicable to the argument. A landlord is a capitalist, unless the landlord is technically owned by the capitalist.

Originally Posted by user_id

Because the vast majority are not interested in half baked communism. You can live in a country that has a political environment more to your liking.

State run capitalism, laissez faire capitalism or welfare capitalism, which are largely what the world consists of currently, are not to my liking. In fact, both state run capitalism and laissez faire capitalism are far worse then welfare capitalism.

Originally Posted by user_id

Your point? The human population has been growing for many thousands of years all the while humans have been inventing more efficient ways of doing things. Globally is there mass unemployment? Nope. It does not even make sense. People work to trade. Its amazing that such an obvious point is missed by so many.

That is because automation has not affected so many levels of the economy at any other point in time.

In the past, people moved from the farms, to factories, or factories to fast food counters......they were all labor intensive, just different forms of labor. So what happens when robots physically replace all need for human labor. Do you honestly think all 10 billion people on Earth at that point, including over 500 million in the US, are going to be employed building and servicing robots? Get real. A handful of people could service hundreds of robots. A couple people could write the code that would be used in thousands, a small team could design those thousands. A largely automated factory would build the thousands.......where exactly do the 500 million people fit in?

Originally Posted by user_id

People will create their own means of survival.

Let me take away your job, any ability for you to get a job, and you go ahead and show how youre going to survive without crime.

Originally Posted by user_id

If people don't want to trade then they just create what they need personal. With the exception of small band societies (which hunt and gather), all human societies trade.

Its not neccessary for many capital owners to trade anything. The middle class and poor classes largely exist to have wealth extracted from them. The rich are not "trading it", they are simply sitting on it, or investing it in the enterprise of other capital owners. They only need us as a means to extract more wealth from us. They pay us $5 to make a $300 dollar product, which they sell to us.

Originally Posted by user_id

They will create and/or get other jobs. Most people use to be employed in farming! Are they all unemployed right now? Nope. This sort of reasoning is easily refuted by historic example.

They went from farming to equally labor intensive jobs. However, the future will not have ANY labor intensive jobs. Computers and robotics have only started to be a major influence in our lifes for about 3 decades, the internet and large scale networks only 2. We are only on the surface of the infestation of computers and robotics in to our daily lives.

Originally Posted by user_id

People can produce "necessary goods" themselves. The capitalist has no monopoly here, not unless the government grants it to him.

How does the capitalist not have a monopoly? Unless you inherited or were gifted your house and enough land to produce food, build an outhouse, cut and collect wood for fire and gather clean water, free and clear, you are indebt to a capitalist, period. Without being indebt to a capitalist, you cannot produce jack squat.

Originally Posted by user_id

It has? In what country? This is just Marxist drivel. None of it came to pass.

France, Spain, Britain, Cuba, Greece, Venezuala, China, Russia, India, Korea, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia.....just a few countries where laissez faire capitalism and its oligarchic plutocracy completely collapsed either peacefully or violently.

[kathys]

Yes I am using land line> I agree it is to much. I do not have high speed cable. Right now I have the basic cable package for $46.00 total. My internet is $15 added on to my phone. I recently downgraded to the most basic DSL. My total phone and internet is around $65.
I hope to get out of here soon and then get a cell, but I am not going to be getting anything fancy.
Where is it that you live and get what you are getting for that price? I would think with less and less land lines they would lower the rates, but no that won't happen, they want to bleed you.

[kathys]

I just checked that site. That is like those magic Jak commercials. How much would I be paying for the cable though. I have'nt checked the prices here locally in about five months. I am with Comcast currently and getting ready to drop them. I am paying $46 for limited basic, after the six months, it goes back up to $80. It might be a little more or less.Would have to look it up. After this deal is over Comcast is going. I am sick of paying for cable and seeing the same garbage over and over and paid programming. If I have to pay for cable to get the cheaper phone what am I saving? Eventually cable will be going to. I will be using the converter box and antennae.

[kathys]

Here is the breakdown on my latest utillities. I did not include phone because I switched over some services.

My total gas bill for May starting at 4/30 for a 32 day bill was $40.54 Just to be a customer they charge you $10 every month, they call that one Customer Charge- Semco Service Charge $5.85- Balanca And Demand Charge -$2.62,Supplier Energy Charge $20.51 -Sales Tax $1.56 The charges are almost as much as the bill.
I did not have the heat on all month, so all that was used was for dryer, oven,and hot water tank. I would like to eliminate dryer, but place where I live does not allow you to hang your clothes outside.
Maybe I need to take less hot showers and not use the stove as much. In the summer I never use the oven, just the burners.
My electric bill for May was $41.98. Breakdown $20.30 for Power Supply-Service Charge-$6.00 Distribution$11.10 Energy Efficency .34 Delivery Surcharges $2.64 and Michigan Sales Tax $1.61
I turn out all my lights when not using.Turn off computer when not using, Turn off air until absolutely needed, same with fans. Unplug things not in use.
Also my boyfriend has allergies and the main allergy is grass, so for some people medical wise air is neccessary. We have to close the windows in the summer.

For the groceries does the $500 include toilet paper, toothpaste, toothbrushes, feminine products, face soap, deodearant, laundry detergeant,razor blades,shampoo, laundry soap,household cleaners,over the counter medicine and first aid items, mouthwash?
If they have thses two kids are they in diapers?
Household stuff like pillows, blankets, towels, lightbulbs, batteries?
I have to assume I guess that this family has already accumulated all these items and they never need to be replaced.
That is just stuff of the top of my head.
I shop at thriftstores for all my clothes, and the prices have gone up somewhat. I will not buy underclothes or shoes there, so that is all new stuff. I never pay of $25 for shoes.
Does the insurance include dental and eyesight. Ever have to go to the dentist lately, it is not cheap.
As for the houses. I used $10,000 as my price. I am sure there are plenty available at 50k in this market, but I do not believe they do no need work and are in t neighborhood where you want kids. If it is a single person or even a couple that would be fine.
Last thing and don't get offended user-id, but are you married and have kids?

[kathys]

Oh I forgot the phone. Yes I know about the $19.99. As I mentioned that is for calls in your specific area. If you call out of that area you are charged extra.It could be across the street if it is across that line, you are charged. Ilived on one side of the street which was the city of Hazel Park, it was Oakland County, across the street was Warren which is Macomb County. if you call there it is a zone call. You are charged extra. They don't tell you that in the fine print.
I currently live at the end of Macomb County and if I call in the inner city with that plan, my bill would be a lot more with the $19.99 service. I am currently paying $35.00 for the long distance that I have. with taxes it comes to $46.63 I also pay extra for the internet. $19.99 I do plan on moving as soon as I can unload this place that I live.It is to expensive here.

[user_id]

Originally Posted by kathys

My total gas bill for May starting at 4/30 for a 32 day bill....

What you said here is not inconsistent with my budget. Although, in your case you're likely to spend more like $60~$70 on average on gas per mouth where as I was calculating $50, but I was figuring $50/month for electricity which is $10 less that what you pay. Anyhow, $200 requires some effort to achieve, but I think $250/month for utilities is pretty easy to achieve.

Originally Posted by kathys

For the groceries does the $500 include toilet paper, toothpaste, toothbrushes, feminine products, face soap, deodearant, laundry detergeant,razor blades,shampoo, laundry soap,household cleaners,over the counter medicine and first aid items, mouthwash....

I'm including that sort of stuff in the $500/month. $400 for food and $100 for non-food household items. I think this is pretty easy to achieve and could easily be lowered.

Originally Posted by kathys

Does the insurance include dental and eyesight. Ever have to go to the dentist lately, it is not cheap.

I'm assuming they have decent benefits that include these things. $200/month for out-of-pocket may be a bit low, $250~$300 is perhaps more likely.

Originally Posted by kathys

I am sure there are plenty available at 50k in this market, but I do not believe they do no need work and are in t neighborhood where you want kids. If it is a single person or even a couple that would be fine.

In most areas of the rust-belt you can find decent houses in the $60k range. The houses of course are not going to be all upgraded and updated, but they decent and not in need of major repairs. You can find houses in the $60k range in decent neighborhoods, they of course won't be the nicest neighborhoods in the area, but the neighborhoods are not filled with crime or anything like that either.

But we are talking about a single income family headed by an unskilled laborer. They really should not be able to afford the nicer areas and should have a lifestyle that relates to their skills.

[Stac2007]

Originally Posted by user_id

What you said here is not inconsistent with my budget. Although, in your case you're likely to spend more like $60~$70 on average on gas per mouth where as I was calculating $50, but I was figuring $50/month for electricity which is $10 less that what you pay. Anyhow, $200 requires some effort to achieve, but I think $250/month for utilities is pretty easy to achieve.


I'm including that sort of stuff in the $500/month. $400 for food and $100 for non-food household items. I think this is pretty easy to achieve and could easily be lowered.


I'm assuming they have decent benefits that include these things. $200/month for out-of-pocket may be a bit low, $250~$300 is perhaps more likely.



In most areas of the rust-belt you can find decent houses in the $60k range. The houses of course are not going to be all upgraded and updated, but they decent and not in need of major repairs. You can find houses in the $60k range in decent neighborhoods, they of course won't be the nicest neighborhoods in the area, but the neighborhoods are not filled with crime or anything like that either.

But we are talking about a single income family headed by an unskilled laborer. They really should not be able to afford the nicer areas and should have a lifestyle that relates to their skills.

Am I the only person who finds this user annoying? Just wondering.

[Lincolnian]

Not all the people working in the rust belt are unskilled laborers. This debate has digressed to using the lowest-skilled worker as the benchmark for average people. If we revisit the OP premise he/she states Jobs of the future - "green" jobs pay scale lower . Many of these jobs require skilled workers who are working for unskilled wages. After forking out tens of thousands of dollars to go to school and get the credentials required to perform the green jobs that are being billed as the future of America, people are finding that these jobs are not paying well. Nowhere in user's stats was there any discussion of adequate savings for the wage earner themselves to improve their education or for the education of their children. A $100 a month savings is not going to do the trick. What about supplemental retirement savings requirements?

Sure I can live in the moment and squeak by on a bare-bones budget for a time but even continuing to live that lifestyle when retired is going to require one to save far more than $100 a month to supplement Social Security (if it still exists) in the future.

I think most will agree that if we become a wage-chasing nation that strictly follows a Milton Friedman Utopian theory for capitalists we will not recognize the American way of life.

The needs of capitalist must be weighed against the needs of the laborer. Abraham Lincoln summed it up well in the following quote:

"Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration."

Abraham Lincoln