Our Dirty Little Secret: Who's Really Poor in America? (student loan, divorced, money)

[Randomdude]

Originally Posted by sean98125

So there is exactly as much wealth in the world as there was when the first foundation was lain in Uruk?

Yep. Redefining wealth is not creating it.

[Randomdude]

Originally Posted by AnesthesiaMD

pharm, the private technology sector

Pharm has helped NOTHING in its complete existance. The only thing its managed to do is make people dependent upon it to cure their "symptoms". Private Pharm has never cured one single major illness, ever, and they like it that way. Curing illnesses is not profitable. Keeping people dependent on your medicine is.

Originally Posted by AnesthesiaMD

produces much of the things we consider "useful". Secondly, products invented at most universities are a product of capitalism,

Really? Since most universities are not for profit, I find that hard to believe. They are products of scientists working to solve problems. This is different from capitalism, which are people working to make money.

Originally Posted by AnesthesiaMD

and those remaining products from government labs are produced using funds from tax dollars produced by capitalism.

Wow, so, capitalism is what creates tax dollars, and here I thought it was just government imposing laws on a revenue stream. Thats an absolutely amazing concept. You should be an economic scholar.......

[Randomdude]

Originally Posted by floridasandy

still wrong.

Well, if you didnt work for your money, you inherited it (which completely deletes you out of the discussion) or took a loan out as capital (which technically indebted you to a man like Bill Gates).

Originally Posted by floridasandy

there seems to be a preoccupation with wealth vs non-wealth in this country ever since the bailouts, when the real focus should be on dishonesty vs non-dishonesty.

Actually, I was making speeches in the year 2001 about the rising Gini index and wealth and income gaps.

Originally Posted by floridasandy

we need to punish the dishonest and the corrupt (whether they are rich or poor). those who stole from american citizens need to be held accountable, but those who did not do not need to be lumped in that category.

Every capitalist alive is a thief unless he is self employed, or paying his employees more or equal their labor value.

Originally Posted by floridasandy

i personally have no problems with physicians making money. they study for years to learn a skill that some people are incapable of learning, work harder than the average person, and often get more into debt than the average person to hone their skills. we do NOT want the dumbing down of doctors! we want well paid dedicated people who are ON TOP OF THEIR GAME. when people start dropping like flies because of incompetent medical care, then the crying will start in earnest.

So, what if we remove the cost of training and medical school, and erase the need for private malpractice insurance? Do you think an MD can then justify making 150k a year or more?

Originally Posted by floridasandy

i watch shows on TLC where people with all kinds of medical problems (tallest person, proteus syndrome, war injuries, etc.) come to the united states for help, because this is the country that is CAPABLE of giving them help. i forget how many nobel prizes in medicine the US has won, but it is quite high compared to the population of the rest of the world. we don't want to lose that advantage. there have been enormous advances in medicine that have saved and improved lives because of our system.

The poor in other countries that cant afford to come to the US and get our overpriced medicine, have better care then our poor who cant afford it here. A homeless man in Costa Rica has medical care. A homeless man in the US will die of preventable illness.

[AnesthesiaMD]

Originally Posted by CosmicWizard

[/indent]IMO it is an egotistical pat on the back to think that all of our best and brightest choose to attend medical school instead of choosing other options. It was never the case that all of our best and brightest want to be doctors, and I don't foresee that changing any time soon. As for getting what we deserve, among the ranks of doctors ( both current and future ) there are many very capable doctors to perform heart surgeries, who are not exclusively driven by a desire for a big salary. Intelligence, capability, and altruism are not mutually exclusive as you would like us to believe. It's all about the $$$$$$.

If you are going to talk in such black and white terms, we are not going to get very far in our discussion. The world is made up of shades of gray. I never said ALL our best and brightest. I just said best and brightest, which can be easily proven when you look at the admissions standards in American medical schools.

Nor have I ever said it is ALL about the money. More shades of gray. Intelligence, capability and altruism is NOT mutually exclusive. I never said it was. In fact I believe that I am pretty altruistic for staying in it as long as I have, without going to consult for a hedge fund or even accepting medicare and medicaid. I have plenty of friends and relatives on wall street making a lot more money than I, yet I and many other doctors choose to do what we are doing. That does not mean that we dont have our limits, and everyone's limit is different. Shades of gray.

Originally Posted by CosmicWizard

[/indent]I wish they would follow through on that temptation! I avoid doctors like the plague, but if I needed one in an emergency situation, I'd rather have a doctor with a Mother Teresa gene than a Donald Trump gene. Again you egotisticaly assume that intelligent, and very capable people all need the ego gratification of a huge salary. Let the money grubbers become MBAs where their dispositions will be a better match. IMO, they do not belong in Medicine anyway. Medicine is essentially a SERVICE occupation. Based on a recent experience with my wife at a local hospital, it seems apparent that the concept of service is no longer part of the curriculum in med school.

Then you dont know too many doctors. At least not well. Some of the best doctors I know are major Aholes. I dont want them marrying my sister, but they are the first person I would go to if my life depended on it. Again, please dont turn this into an ALL or NOTHING deal. I realize there are Harvard graduated Mother Theresas out there too, and if you can find one, GREAT! But when my life depends on it, the Harvard part is a lot more important to me than the Theresa part. And that is from someone who lives in the system.

[AnesthesiaMD]

Originally Posted by Randomdude

Pharm has helped NOTHING in its complete existance. The only thing its managed to do is make people dependent upon it to cure their "symptoms". Private Pharm has never cured one single major illness, ever, and they like it that way. Curing illnesses is not profitable. Keeping people dependent on your medicine is.

This is a little too "fringe" for my taste. I'll let this one stand on it's own.

Originally Posted by Randomdude

Really? Since most universities are not for profit, I find that hard to believe. They are products of scientists working to solve problems. This is different from capitalism, which are people working to make money.

It is still funded by capitalism. Without endowments, they cant do research. Endowments are usually made by alumni who have become successful in business.

Originally Posted by Randomdude

Wow, so, capitalism is what creates tax dollars, and here I thought it was just government imposing laws on a revenue stream. Thats an absolutely amazing concept. You should be an economic scholar.......

You are one of those guys? The guy who thinks people will respect him more if he hurls insults at the other guy? Do you really think that gives you credibility in anyone else's eyes?

The rest of your comment is just nonsensical evasive gibberish. I dont know where you think that "revenue stream" is coming from. I have taken enough economics courses in my day to know it isn't coming from thin air. It is, for the most part coming from earnings as a result of work.

[CosmicWizard]

AnesthesiaMD wrote:

Then you dont know too many doctors. At least not well. Some of the best doctors I know are major Aholes. I dont want them marrying my sister, but they are the first person I would go to if my life depended on it. Again, please dont turn this into an ALL or NOTHING deal. I realize there are Harvard graduated Mother Theresas out there too, and if you can find one, GREAT! But when my life depends on it, the Harvard part is a lot more important to me than the Theresa part. And that is from someone who lives in the system. ( emphasis added by CW )

I only know one really well. Like I stated in an earlier post, I avoid doctors like the plague. My father-in-law is a retired physician. Back in the late 80s or thereabouts, I asked him if he'd still go to med school and become a doctor if he was just getting out of college. He responded that he wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole. When I asked him why's that, he responded that medicine sold it's soul to the drug companies, and the insurance companies took away his ability to put the patient first. He was an old school doc, who started his practice at the end of the era when doctors made house calls. From listening to his stories, those were the times when he most enjoyed being a doctor. He never made the BIG bucks that doctors make today, but he did OK for himself and managed to put his patients first in spite of the insurance companies. His patients still love him many years after his retirement.

[AnesthesiaMD]

Originally Posted by CosmicWizard

He never made the BIG bucks that doctors make today, but he did OK for himself and his patients still love him today.

Then your father-in-law had a very different experience than most docs. The 80s were the heyday for doctor's salaries. Everybody had insurance, they were mostly not-for-profit, and they paid anything you asked of them. I was not fortunate enough to be practicing back then, but the old timers in the doctors lounge are always reminiscing about the 80s. You know it IS possible to want to help people AND make a good living too, right?

[CosmicWizard]

AnesthesiaMD wrote:

I believe that I am pretty altruistic for staying in it as long as I have ( emphasis added by CW )

The attirude you admit to is part of my issue with doctors in general, certainly not all doctors..just doctors in general ( and I can readily see how an attitude like that develops...insurance companies, drug companies, uncle sam, lawsuits, etc ). If a doctor thinks of his work as staying in it, rather than loving it, you don't have to say a word....patients pick up on it anyway.

[AnesthesiaMD]

Originally Posted by CosmicWizard

AnesthesiaMD wrote:

I believe that I am pretty altruistic for staying in it as long as I have ( emphasis added by CW )

The attirude you admit to is part of my issue with doctors in general, certainly not all doctors..just doctors in general ( and I can readily see how an attitude like that develops...insurance companies, drug companies, uncle sam, lawsuits, etc ). If a doctor thinks of his work as staying in it, rather than loving it, you don't have to say a word....patients pick up on it anyway.

Then it's a good thing mine are asleep most of the time I am with them.

[Mathguy]

Originally Posted by CosmicWizard

AnesthesiaMD wrote:

Then you dont know too many doctors. At least not well. Some of the best doctors I know are major Aholes. I dont want them marrying my sister, but they are the first person I would go to if my life depended on it. Again, please dont turn this into an ALL or NOTHING deal. I realize there are Harvard graduated Mother Theresas out there too, and if you can find one, GREAT! But when my life depends on it, the Harvard part is a lot more important to me than the Theresa part. And that is from someone who lives in the system. ( emphasis added by CW )

I only know one really well. Like I stated in an earlier post, I avoid doctors like the plague. My father-in-law is a retired physician. Back in the late 80s or thereabouts, I asked him if he'd still go to med school and become a doctor if he was just getting out of college. He responded that he wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole. When I asked him why's that, he responded that medicine sold it's soul to the drug companies, and the insurance companies took away his ability to put the patient first. He was an old school doc, who started his practice at the end of the era when doctors made house calls. From listening to his stories, those were the times when he most enjoyed being a doctor. He never made the BIG bucks that doctors make today, but he did OK for himself and managed to put his patients first in spite of the insurance companies. His patients still love him many years after his retirement.

Oh please. The consumer wants cheap insurance....they just want it to cover EVERYTHING when THEY get sick.

Tell you what, go start up an insurance company where you cover everything and don't challenge doctors\hospitals etc. on thier billing. You will be milked by every shady practice in the country. My sister works in healthcare and there are a number of docs that are MORE than happy to help you with your disability or to get a larger settlement etc. if they are getting a piece of the pie.

Plenty of blame to go around, insurance cos, consumers, doctors, corporations....picking one and slathering the blame on them is