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I am so rolling my eyes at all of this. The culture is changing because children are out of control! They are out of control because they are not being disciplined appropriately. I cannot stand to see some sniveling mother in Walmart trying to reason with a 3 year old about why she should behave in the store. Someone said something about not paddling a 6'3" kid. Well, by that point you shouldn't have to. Corporal punishment does not teach kids that might equals right. That is one of the most ignorant statements I have ever heard. It teaches a child who doesn't have abstract reasoning skills that bad behavior has a bad consequence. It should not be used all of the time, and it should not ever be done in anger....under any circumstances. But done correctly, it can be a very effective tool.
BTW, I was spanked as a child and I am not aggressive at all. I guess I missed the lesson that might equals right.
Discipline does not equal hitting. Discipline means teaching a child to learn how to behave. Hitting is not the only way to discipline a child. If you don't spend the time teaching a child to control himself then he NEVER LEARNS. If you never discipline a child he will not learn to behave. But it can be done without hitting.
A child does not need abstract reasoning skills to learn to behave. Discipline needs to be consistent, and have some tie to what the child did wrong to be effective. This does not require high level thinking skills on the part of a child and needs to start long before the child is 6'3" tall to be effective.
Discipline does not equal hitting. Discipline means teaching a child to learn how to behave. Hitting is not the only way to discipline a child. If you don't spend the time teaching a child to control himself then he NEVER LEARNS. If you never discipline a child he will not learn to behave. But it can be done without hitting.
A child does not need abstract reasoning skills to learn to behave. Discipline needs to be consistent, and have some tie to what the child did wrong to be effective. This does not require high level thinking skills on the part of a child and needs to start long before the child is 6'3" tall to be effective.
My point is that a child that cannot be reasoned with at a young age in the way many parents try to do. Too many parents think they have to use adult logic with a child and it is disasterous. It creates children who are out of control because they are never given the tools to control themselves. For some children, corporal punishment works. For others, it doesn't. I have 3 children, I don't spank my son who is 11. He is too old for that now. Even my 5 year old is beginning to get too old for it on many occasions. My 3 year old does get a spanking on occassion. It does help her develop self-control.
Have you read Kohlberg's stages of moral development? Many young children are in the preconventional stage which is about avoiding punishment and self-oriented interests. Young children learn how to control themselves by avoiding punishment. Corporal punishment is a form of punishment that can be used as a deterent....which is completely within the realm of that stage of development. Older children are more advanced and other techniques can be used.
BTW, there is a huge difference between hitting (which is out of anger) and corporal punishment (a swat on the backside). Using the term "hitting" is alarmist.
You are applying adult logic to a child's thinking when you assume that children think that way. They don't.
I agree that we should be teaching self control, but can you honestly teach a 2 year old self-control by talking to them? I don't see it done very effectively at all. The people that I know that don't spank their children from time to time have complete brats for children. The children run all over them! This isn't to say that all children who aren't spanked will turn out that way, but I find it very coincidental that children are by far worse behaviorally than they were 50 years ago and at the same time the use of corporal punishment has decreased as well.
I wouldn't talk to a 2 year old to discipline them. That's silly. There are other means of discipline besides talking and hitting. You have to be a little creative as a parent.
It seems you are equating a lack of hitting with a lack of discipline. I don't advocate lack of discipline and my kids have described my husband and I as "strict" although we do not hit our kids. Discipline is very important. Kids need structure and they need to know that there are limits and that there are consequences for exceeding those limits. Without that they do not have the tools to control themselves.
What measures are you using to say kids are behaving worse than they did 50 years ago? I know some great kids and I know some brats. I have a feeling there were good kids and brats 50 years ago also.
One of the things that I see frequently is that parents put their young children in positions that the young children are not able to handle (for example toddlers at fancy restaurants, or late movies). The kids appear to be out of control because the parents have put them in a position where they are not capable of behaving appropriately. In reality most of them are just acting their age.......This bothers me more than people who do not discipline their kids.
My point is that a child that cannot be reasoned with at a young age in the way many parents try to do. Too many parents think they have to use adult logic with a child and it is disasterous. It creates children who are out of control because they are never given the tools to control themselves. For some children, corporal punishment works. For others, it doesn't. I have 3 children, I don't spank my son who is 11. He is too old for that now. Even my 5 year old is beginning to get too old for it on many occasions. My 3 year old does get a spanking on occassion. It does help her develop self-control.
Have you read Kohlberg's stages of moral development? Many young children are in the preconventional stage which is about avoiding punishment and self-oriented interests. Young children learn how to control themselves by avoiding punishment. Corporal punishment is a form of punishment that can be used as a deterent....which is completely within the realm of that stage of development. Older children are more advanced and other techniques can be used.
BTW, there is a huge difference between hitting (which is out of anger) and corporal punishment (a swat on the backside). Using the term "hitting" is alarmist.
I have read Kohlberg and I fully understand the motivation of a young child to avoid punishment. However, hitting is not the only form of punishment there is. You can call it whatever you want to call it, but hitting a person is hitting them regardless of the motivation.
I don't think other people who hit their kids are bad parents, I just don't do it. My kids are to old for it now anyway (they are 13, 11, 8).
I wouldn't talk to a 2 year old to discipline them. That's silly. There are other means of discipline besides talking and hitting. You have to be a little creative as a parent.
It seems you are equating a lack of hitting with a lack of discipline. I don't advocate lack of discipline and my kids have described my husband and I as "strict" although we do not hit our kids. Discipline is very important. Kids need structure and they need to know that there are limits and that there are consequences for exceeding those limits. Without that they do not have the tools to control themselves.
What measures are you using to say kids are behaving worse than they did 50 years ago? I know some great kids and I know some brats. I have a feeling there were good kids and brats 50 years ago also.
One of the things that I see frequently is that parents put their young children in positions that the young children are not able to handle (for example toddlers at fancy restaurants, or late movies). The kids appear to be out of control because the parents have put them in a position where they are not capable of behaving appropriately. In reality most of them are just acting their age.......This bothers me more than people who do not discipline their kids.
I don't think that I am saying that a lack of corporal punishment equals a lack of discipline. I am saying it is one tool that parents can use. If a parent chooses to not use it, that is fine, but do not put down those who choose to use it. It is one way to teach self-control to young children.
Yes, there were brats 50 years ago, but look at the disrespect in the media today. It is rampant and a symptom of a larger societal illness. I am 31 years old, and I am blown away by the way some children behave today compared to when I was a child. As a teacher, I talk to a lot of students everyday. The lack of regard for parents, the entitlement issue, etc is overwhelming in children I speak with. Part of this is because of permissive parenting. No, I am not saying you have to spank a child to not be considered permissive. But the children I see who are out of control and disrespectful are not ever spanked.
I have read Kohlberg and I fully understand the motivation of a young child to avoid punishment. However, hitting is not the only form of punishment there is. You can call it whatever you want to call it, but hitting a person is hitting them regardless of the motivation.
I don't think other people who hit their kids are bad parents, I just don't do it. My kids are to old for it now anyway (they are 13, 11, 8).
Well, we will agree to disagree on the wording. I don't see it the same way. I have an 11 year old, and I agree...he is too old for that.
I agree that corporal punishment isn't the only form of punishment. It works for some children but not others. That is just like any form of punishment. I have one child who will stand in the corner forever....it isn't any kind of punishment for her. But my son would do whatever he could to stay out of the timeout corner. The same goes for a spanking. My youngest will avoid it at all costs. My middle child could be spanked every day and it wouldn't affect her 90% of the time. Like I said, it is one tool ........
I don't think that I am saying that a lack of corporal punishment equals a lack of discipline. I am saying it is one tool that parents can use. If a parent chooses to not use it, that is fine, but do not put down those who choose to use it. It is one way to teach self-control to young children.
Yes, there were brats 50 years ago, but look at the disrespect in the media today. It is rampant and a symptom of a larger societal illness. I am 31 years old, and I am blown away by the way some children behave today compared to when I was a child. As a teacher, I talk to a lot of students everyday. The lack of regard for parents, the entitlement issue, etc is overwhelming in children I speak with. Part of this is because of permissive parenting. No, I am not saying you have to spank a child to not be considered permissive. But the children I see who are out of control and disrespectful are not ever spanked.
The way I read your posts is that you seem to think that a child who is not hit (struck, swatted, whatever) isn't disciplined and that hitting is the only punishment that a child will avoid. I totally agree that different kids require different treatment by parents.
Isn't most of the disrespect in the media perpetrated by adults and IMITATED by kids? That's an issue that has very little to do with parental discipline.
Last edited by Momma_bear; 12-27-2007 at 09:40 PM..
Reason: I didn't like my tone
Is it any wonder that this country is in desperate need of teachers, somehow teachers are blamed for everything from left, right, center.
And with america recruiting teachers from overseas?? lmao.... entertainment value? i rate that as a 10!!
Teachers and the likes, i hear Asia is where teachers are respected (almost godlike status) you get to work the hours with minimum headaches and hassle's, you wont have any disciplinary issues and if you do, you report it and then the school and parents will take note and take care of it accordingly (the child). They too, are in dire need of teachers to teach their kids to FURTHER excel in the academic field. You deserve the recognition and rewards.
Is it any wonder that this country is in desperate need of teachers, somehow teachers are blamed for everything from left, right, center.
And with america recruiting teachers from overseas?? lmao.... entertainment value? i rate that as a 10!!
Teachers and the likes, i hear Asia is where teachers are respected (almost godlike status) you get to work the hours with minimum headaches and hassle's, you wont have any disciplinary issues and if you do, you report it and then the school and parents will take note and take care of it accordingly (the child). They too, are in dire need of teachers to teach their kids to FURTHER excel in the academic field. You deserve the recognition and rewards.
Hey Gracie, You can't even believe what I read and posted about today> I was on the edweek.org site and they had a story about a 20 veteran teacher in the Washington Post, I think it said, but anyway, the principle wanted her fired and the parents didn't. I guess it was a big contraversy and I believe still is. On this story page the Washington people are asking for help from everyone, because the administration went ahead and fired her. The people are livid. The reason for her being fired is really bizarre. Go read it. My posts are just a mom. One of the reasons is because she was too "motherly". What do think about this? Do you agree with administration or the parents?
In my school, the students would be likely to shoot us before we could get close enough to paddle them .....
NOT ONLY THIS, BUT THEN YOU HAVE THE REST OF THE FAMILY OR THE GANG TO DEAL WITH. LISTEN UP ALL YOU OLD SCHOOLERS AND GET WITH THE PROGRAM.
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