Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Ivory, your school does not give percentage grades along with the letter grades? Our high school sends home a report card with percentages for each class, as well as the corresponding letter grade. I don't know what they do on the transcripts that go to the colleges, though.
Here's one for you: We homeschool, and some of the classes that my kids take are through our state's virtual school. They are allowed (by the school) to redo all lessons and tests. They have to redo them if they get under a 60, and they have the option if they get less than a 100. I have my kids redo anything under 80 for most classes. Not because I am worried about the grade, but because I want to see them understanding the topic. I did not make my son redo his Chinese last year because I knew he was only taking one semester (he disliked it but I didn't want him to drop it), so I didn't care much about mastery and understanding. But for the most part, they get Bs or higher, because I have them redo lessons and assignments (and tests) so I know that they know their stuff and can move on. I'm not sure why the regular schools don't have the same rule as the virtual schools. It's all run by the same public school system, as far as I'm aware.
Ivory, your school does not give percentage grades along with the letter grades? Our high school sends home a report card with percentages for each class, as well as the corresponding letter grade. I don't know what they do on the transcripts that go to the colleges, though.
Here's one for you: We homeschool, and some of the classes that my kids take are through our state's virtual school. They are allowed (by the school) to redo all lessons and tests. They have to redo them if they get under a 60, and they have the option if they get less than a 100. I have my kids redo anything under 80 for most classes. Not because I am worried about the grade, but because I want to see them understanding the topic. I did not make my son redo his Chinese last year because I knew he was only taking one semester (he disliked it but I didn't want him to drop it), so I didn't care much about mastery and understanding. But for the most part, they get Bs or higher, because I have them redo lessons and assignments (and tests) so I know that they know their stuff and can move on. I'm not sure why the regular schools don't have the same rule as the virtual schools. It's all run by the same public school system, as far as I'm aware.
Not on the official transcript. That has only the letter grade. The report card has the percentage too.
The grading model I like is called a mastery grading system or A,B,I system. The student earns and A, B or an I the first time. If they get an I they must redo the material until they get the B. The A can only be earned the first time which is why I can't sell this system in my school. Parents want multiple chances to get that all important A. A B which is 85% on our scale is mastery in the sense that the student can go on with confidence. An A is just a higher level of mastery. IMO retakes shouldn't be about turning B's into A's. They should be turning non mastery into enough mastery for the student to go on with confidence but I can't seem to win this argument. Parent think it's unfair to allow Dennis to raise his D- to a B but not let Suzy raise her B to a solid A. What they don't realize is that Dennis actually knows more after he retakes the test but Suzy doesn't. She was just did better because the test was similar to the one she took before and she only had to study 10% of the material she missed. Dennis had to study 40% of the material on the test to earn his higher grade.
The teachers who do standards based grading address this by making each retake harder to pass but I think that is problematic for that student who needs to get to mastery to go on with confidence. THEY don't need a moving target. The only purpose of the moving target is to make it harder to use retakes to get an A but a side effect of the moving target is it's harder for the student who hasn't attained mastery to show mastery and they may just give up. IMO it would be more honest to just say you can only get the A the first time but parents don't like that.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 09-20-2016 at 06:47 AM..
I'm curious, why are you so against treating the top students the same as the bottom ones? I could understand no retakes if it was consistent, but I don't understand why a D get a second chance and make a B, but the B shouldn't get a second chance at the A? When I was a student I never understood why the schools placed so much time and emphasis on the bottom, while the top were left to flounder on their own, didn't understand when my own kids were in school, and don't understand now. It seems to me the focus should be on helping the best students even better because they are the ones who will make something from it.
I'm curious, why are you so against treating the top students the same as the bottom ones? I could understand no retakes if it was consistent, but I don't understand why a D get a second chance and make a B, but the B shouldn't get a second chance at the A? When I was a student I never understood why the schools placed so much time and emphasis on the bottom, while the top were left to flounder on their own, didn't understand when my own kids were in school, and don't understand now. It seems to me the focus should be on helping the best students even better because they are the ones who will make something from it.
I agree; they need to either consistently allow retakes or consistently not allow retakes. And I agree that it's frustrating seeing schools ignore the top students in favor of the weaker students.
I'm sure ivorytickler considers anybody trying to get an A rather than a B to be a "grade grubber". And I'm sure he's the type who argues that you should learn for learning sake and not worry about the grade. Unfortunately, whether fair or not, college admissions and scholarships are decided by grades. Whether fair or not, entry to honors and AP classes in high school are decided by grades. Whether fair or not, many parents pressure their kids into maintaining certain grades. Rather than making it difficult to get an A (but give D's to people who probably deserve F's), and rather than getting angry at students who want an A rather than a B (but having no problem with those who want a D rather than an F), maybe some structural changes are needed to our system to de-emphasize the impact of grades. What exactly, I don't know.
I think part of the problem is that teachers tend to relate to the struggling students, but they tend to find the high achieving students (such as myself, when I was in school) to be annoying.
Last year, my daughter's 6th grade math teacher allowed any student, regardless of grade received, to retake a test. Only the higher grade was used. The catch was that the ENTIRE test had to be retaken, and while the substance of the questions would be the same, the numbers used would be different. So, it was a fair amount of time and effort required on the student's part, to take it again.
My daughter was a "grade grubber", lol, and if she didn't get at least a 95% she retook it in hopes of raising her average. I didn't really that was necessary, myself, but who am I to stand in the way of an 11-year old who likes math? I thought it was a good policy, though, if the goal was to get students every opportunity to learn the material.
I agree; they need to either consistently allow retakes or consistently not allow retakes. And I agree that it's frustrating seeing schools ignore the top students in favor of the weaker students.
I'm sure ivorytickler considers anybody trying to get an A rather than a B to be a "grade grubber". And I'm sure he's the type who argues that you should learn for learning sake and not worry about the grade. Unfortunately, whether fair or not, college admissions and scholarships are decided by grades. Whether fair or not, entry to honors and AP classes in high school are decided by grades. Whether fair or not, many parents pressure their kids into maintaining certain grades. Rather than making it difficult to get an A (but give D's to people who probably deserve F's), and rather than getting angry at students who want an A rather than a B (but having no problem with those who want a D rather than an F), maybe some structural changes are needed to our system to de-emphasize the impact of grades. What exactly, I don't know.
I think part of the problem is that teachers tend to relate to the struggling students, but they tend to find the high achieving students (such as myself, when I was in school) to be annoying.
As someone who has exclusively taught high achieving students (like yourself) for years, the bolded is so not true as to be laughable. The reality is kids don't fall into two simple groups, high achieving and the not. Two common groups, those who work hard, earn high marks the first time, or if not they realize where they went wrong and improve for the next time. And the ones who think of themselves as high achieving, but often have less than stellar marks and place the blame every where but where it really lies. Those kids are frequently "grade grubbers" and will do everything from try to negotiate grades, complain about someone breathing to hard so they couldn't concentrate, to begging for multiple retakes on every assessment. Luckily those kids are few and far between, but yes, they are annoying.
Most of my accounting classes allowed a retake. Mainly because each individual question could involve 30-90 minutes of number crunching and several dozen units of data; you can know the material forward and backward, but one minor transposition if a digit could cost you the whole question. Whether you failed the test completely, or are not satisfied with a 98 you can look it over and see where you made an error, then go back and the whole test over with new sets of data.
I don't see what the big deal is. If you're going to allow retakes for someone who got a 65, then why not for someone who got an 85?
Because the student who get A's and high B's are in competition for entry into the best colleges, for graduation honors and for scholarships. When you mess with grades at the top you don't just impact the student whose grade you improve. You impact every student they jump over as a result of that second chance. That student who got the 90 the first time shouldn't have to retake out of fear that a student who got an 85 will retake and get a 95. By including the top you are creating a situation where students have to retake as part of that competition to stay ahead of the competition and in the end you don't know who really is the strongest student...the one deserving of the title valedictorian or of entry into the elite program or who should receive the scholarship.
It is because the top kids are in competition with each other that their grades should not be padded in any way. The student who gets the A the first time SHOULD stand out from the student who can't get the A the first time whether that is because of laziness or simply not being as intelligent. If a student with a 65 retakes to get an 85 the only student who is impacted is that student and that student is now better prepared to do well as they move on in the class. Not so with a student who had an 85 retaking to get a 98. They already knew enough to go on with confidence. All the retake is about for them is the grade...and the completion. IMO allowing kids to retake at the top is cheating in that competition. Retakes aren't about helping kids to get ahead so they can best the next student they're in competition with. They're about giving kids who are struggling a second chance to learn material they need to move on with confidence. The kids at 85% and above are already there.
Also, this is IME but the lower performing kids who retake seem to get much more out of them. At the top retakes have created a disparity between semester grades and final exam grades. It is not unusual for A students to bomb the final because the only reason they had an A in the first place was retakes. But they still get an A in the class because their semester A was high enough to offset their poor performance on the final exam (when we didn't cap retakes we had students retaking to get 100%'s so their grade was high enough to allow them to bomb the final). Personally, I think if you're going to have retakes the final exam needs to be at least 1/3 of the grade. Preferably 50% of the grade. IF retakes work the student who took the retake should have no issue performing equally well on the final exam. IRL final exam scores seem to look more like the first take than the retake which tells me they do not work for top students. For bottom students the final exam score tends to be somewhere between the first take and retake. There is some improvement there. This is IME of course.
FTR what we've decided to do this year is allow a limited number of retakes at the end of the semester because parents complained about the 85% cap. We feel that by putting weeks or even months between the test and the retake students can't use the first test as the "pre-take" or practice for the real test. Plus they have to look at that grade all semester. One thing we saw with retakes right after the first test was that students didn't learn from their mistakes the first time. When that unwanted B, C or D just sits in the grade book kids are more motivated to study harder on the next test.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 09-24-2016 at 12:50 PM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
) for years, the bolded is so not true as to be laughable. The reality is kids don't fall into two simple groups, high achieving and the not. Two common groups, those who work hard, earn high marks the first time, or if not they realize where they went wrong and improve for the next time. And the ones who think of themselves as high achieving, but often have less than stellar marks and place the blame every where but where it really lies. Those kids are frequently "grade grubbers" and will do everything from try to negotiate grades, complain about someone breathing to hard so they couldn't concentrate, to begging for multiple retakes on every assessment. Luckily those kids are few and far between, but yes, they are annoying.
you can look it over and see where you made an error, then go back and the whole test over with new sets of data.
