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Old 08-16-2020, 03:55 PM
 
8,211 posts, read 4,637,665 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
No. In a world in which the best educated countries will outperform those less so education is absolutely not overrated.

In fact the opposite is true. Most K-12 kids have parents who are partially or fully disengaged and some who are willfully belligerent towards education.

Our K-12 outcomes yield nothing short of a national security problem.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiociolliscalves View Post
Agreed, but disengaged parents explain only part of the problem. Speaking of IQ is anathema most of the time, particularly in education, but IQs are dropping indeveloped countries. This leads to natural question: are we asking the worst-performing kids to learn things and do things that they are not capable of learning or doing? The other obvious question is, "Why are IQs dropping, and even if we can figure this out, can our education system do anything to reverse it?" My guess is "yes" to the former and "no" to the latter. I suspect we are headed to an increasingly oligarchal, feudalistic society. I think we already see some of this dystopic reality in our major cities and surrounding 'burbs.
Wanted to give both y'all + points because this is really central to the discussion on education in the US. It is a national security issue. However I disagree that most K-12 parents are disengaged. Rather I believe, certainly from the ones I know, they want to be engaged. But the school system is so focused on those other few, the actively disengaged, that it's shutting out the very parents who have the most to offer if they were listened to.

We have a school system so focused on equity that it is bring the top down because it can't bring the bottom up. It's a system that would rather have everyone mediocre that acknowledge some are academically better than others. We have no problem acknowledging this in sports but not in academics.
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Old 08-16-2020, 06:05 PM
 
57,213 posts, read 45,324,916 times
Reputation: 35581
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arya Stark View Post
Yes it has swung too far. My cousin always avoided school, got his GED, went to college by correspondence in the military... and it one of the smartest people I know. And has good jobs now without a big school degree.

He had more time to explore things naturally and I think the ultimate result of that was a more focused and intelligent mind.

I also think the curriculum today is an utter waste of time and needs to be revised and condensed
What is this "vague curriculum" that is a waste of time?

Do schools around you not have advanced classes? Wth.
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Old 08-16-2020, 08:06 PM
 
2,875 posts, read 988,320 times
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Many of the wasteful aspects of education function as IQ tests. We continue to fund this waste because actually requiring IQ scores for employment is illegal, so we use expensive proxies with somewhat more holistic criteria. (These proxies are also more easily gamed by the wealthy.)

If you make employer-issued IQ testing legal, a lot of the gamesmanship and waste around education will fall away. You would also need to stop requiring credentials for many lines of work to complete the transformation.

But that would be a radical departure from history. Contrary to some narratives, education was not more meritocratic in the past. Education has always been a way to transmit status from generation to generation, with knowledge acquisition and knowledge generation being secondary concerns.

Empowering high IQ cohorts to leapfrog both socialization rituals and seniority systems would probably result in a more productive society net net. However it would accelerate wealth concentration due to assortive mating, and might be so inequitable as to destabilize society.
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Old 08-16-2020, 08:27 PM
 
16,689 posts, read 19,267,530 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
BTW - that's a great post......

I'm on terrible internet today....looking things up takes forever.

I haven't read anything about Flynn Effect reversal if you will in a while. The last bit I did read pertained to Norway. The take in Norway is that falling IQ is nearly all quantified within two areas....dysgenic fertility (hope I got the term right and it's a fancy way of saying lower IQ people are having more kids) and immigration. I'll see if I can find that piece.

Also has IQ fallen in The US - last I read it had flatlined but not fallen?
Here is a url for you. It does talk about Norway. It also has recent research that shows the dysgenic fertility is not necessarily the answer as IQs are falling within families according to newer research - this is absolutely alarming, imo.

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinio...de-ncna1008576

Quote:
As yet, the United States hasn’t hit this IQ wall — despite what you may be tempted to surmise from the current state of the political debate. But don’t rush to celebrate American exceptionalism: If IQs are dropping in other advanced countries but not here, maybe that means we’re not really an advanced country (too much poverty, too little social support).

Or — just as troubling — if we are keeping up with the Joneses (or Johanssons and Jacques) in terms of national development, that means we are likely to experience similarly plummeting IQs in the near future. At which point, the U.S. will face the same dangers of intellectual and economic stagnation
Quote:
However, a 2018 study of Norway has punctured these theories by showing that IQs are dropping not just across societies but within families. In other words, the issue is not that educated Norwegians are increasingly outnumbered by lower-IQ immigrants or the children of less-educated citizens. Even children born to high-IQ parents are slipping down the IQ ladder.

Some environmental factor — or collection of factors — is causing a drop in the IQ scores of parents and their own children, and older kids and their younger siblings. One leading explanation is that the rise of lower-skill service jobs has made work less intellectually demanding, leaving IQs to atrophy as people flex their brains less.
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Old 08-16-2020, 09:40 PM
 
Location: NYC
17,487 posts, read 11,128,370 times
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Education is conformity because intelligence can't be mimicked. Someone who has an intelligent mind can easily learn anything with the necessary information.

You meet so many people who has top tier education but only has 1/2 a brain with simple things in the real world that aren't taught in school or part of required studies for their degree.
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Old 08-16-2020, 10:18 PM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
26,166 posts, read 43,924,389 times
Reputation: 29665
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
No. In a world in which the best educated countries will outperform those less so education is absolutely not overrated.

In fact the opposite is true. Most K-12 kids have parents who are partially or fully disengaged and some who are willfully belligerent towards education.

Our K-12 outcomes yield nothing short of a national security problem.
True, as our USA education (?) mirrors the fall of USA Manf (value added jobs and productivity / general wealth building for individuals, communities, and economy). We needed to manage that 'evaporation' of skilled careers and income, though that process is a natural evolution of an industrial society. USA could have strategically leveraged that transition to it's benefit. Not sure we can do that with our EDU system at this point (We may have lost too much of our strategic lead).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arya Stark View Post
Yes it has swung too far. My cousin always avoided school, got his GED, went to college by correspondence in the military... and it one of the smartest people I know. And has good jobs now without a big school degree.
...
I also think the curriculum today is an utter waste of time and needs to be revised and condensed
true also... USA offers many options (still) and the USA generic 'Education' is no better than being 'Normal'. Normal / average does not cut it while in worldwide competition for innovation and business investment. Better be FIRST (as USA used to be), or you better be really efficient (As Japan proved), or you better be really cheap (as China was able to do BEFORE their labor force became able to reach middle class)

Quote:
Originally Posted by vision33r View Post
Education is conformity because intelligence can't be mimicked. Someone who has an intelligent mind can easily learn anything with the necessary information.
....
Then there is 'Applied Knowledge' / business leadership.

I, and I am sure thousand here, are quite alarmed at what has become the 'new-normal' at previously strong USA fortune 50 and innovation leader companies in the USA. Management has rolled to a fortuitous generation of 'educated' but not experienced or knowledgeable disciplined leadership. These companies are currently running on previous momentum, but not a sustainable business model that equips the enterprise for continuing into the future. One can see this in family owned / run businesses which often fail generational continuity. Eventually EVERYONE is out of a job, due to buy-outs, or failures.

Now, of all times is critical for solid decisions and execution. If not, expect some significant USA companies (and communities) to fail.

Education in USA, similar situation. Some are running on momentum, some are running out. Covid offers an opportunity (and risk) to turn the tables. By and large, USA EDU is not into risk, or taking advice... so they (we) will reap the results.

Education in general is treasured and amply delivered throughout the world with few exceptions. Usually lack of resources stifles developing nations, USA EDU may falter in a parallel path to our non medical / scientific response to Covid/ (The world is amazed at our failure, be we are not .) Education in USA is not treasured (it is expected, entitled), tho our abundant resources are not being applied to the best good of the nation and it's future. (no strategy).

Hang on. You are going for a ride.
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Old 08-16-2020, 10:19 PM
 
Location: San Francisco
4,260 posts, read 1,135,651 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ripkobe248 View Post

Was the topic of educating the children and importance of it such a big thing say 100+ years ago?
It didn't need to be; the world was obviously a different place sans current technology and globalization.
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Old 08-17-2020, 10:47 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
31,044 posts, read 13,155,589 times
Reputation: 23718
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arya Stark View Post
Yes it has swung too far. My cousin always avoided school, got his GED, went to college by correspondence in the military... and it one of the smartest people I know. And has good jobs now without a big school degree.

He had more time to explore things naturally and I think the ultimate result of that was a more focused and intelligent mind.

I also think the curriculum today is an utter waste of time and needs to be revised and condensed
And therefore, that path is right for everyone! Gee, that was simple. Except it's not.
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Old 08-17-2020, 10:54 AM
 
1,712 posts, read 399,291 times
Reputation: 3098
You chose a poor era to ask that question. I don't know what "education" means to many of you (on C-D or here, in "real life") but I can make these observations about what a LACK of education has left us with:


1. People who cannot make change, calculate a tip, or keep track of their bank account without assistance.
2. People who have no understanding whatsoever where their 'retirement' money goes, or if there is any, or what it will amount to later in life, or how much they will need.
3. People who - quite literally - do not know north from south. They could not find their own way home from across town without assistance. They do not know street names, directions, or distances, and are unaware of how the interstate system works.
4. People who do not know how many feet are in a mile, how many inches are in a foot, how many ounces are in a pound, how many pounds are in a kilogram, how many acres are in a square mile and so on...
5. ....cannot do basic multiplication or division in their head.
6. ....given a distance on a sign, and knowing their speed limit, cannot guess how long a journey will take.
7. ....cannot ride a bicycle.
8. ....cannot swim.
9. ....cannot locate their hometown or street or home using google earth (or any sat-view map app)
10. ....do not know how many people live in this world, this country, or this county
11. ....do not know anything about any history, WWII, WW1, Vietnam, Korea, the Civil War or the Revolution. Not dates, not names, not outcomes - NOTHING.
12. ....do not know the VERY basic ideas between how an automobile functions (leads to the many - many - instances of people I've seen trying to jump start a car when it is out of gas).
13. ...cannot differentiate fine art, films, literature, music, or similar, from pre-school drivel.

14. ...cannot cook, and cannot identify fundamental food items, like a potato.
15. ...cannot do basic algebra, so determining how much paint or flooring or cement or grass seed or gasoline you need for a given task is impossible...
16. ...think the earth is flat...
17. ...think we never went to the moon...
18. ...think 5G is a secret weapon...
19. ...think bigfoot and nessie are real...but COVID is not...
20. ...think jets are spraying us with poison.


Have I made my point? Obviously, some of these are priority based. I am not talking about farmers loving food, but not knowing art, or engineers knowing 5G but not knowing food, or my wife not knowing where north is, even though she can type 100 words a minute...nope. I'm talking about people who are ALL 20 OF THESE THINGS.


And this is not a rare bunch. No. It is a common - and increasingly common - bunch.



Now - you can say "education" is not about these things - but it is about ONE thing these all have in common: The desire to LEARN. Which we - more and more - do not have. College MAY not teach you what's in guacamole - but it is SUPPOSED to teach you to ask the question. To have some "care." To develop your innate curiosity about the world around you.


If you have special skills - in sports, arts, science - then it may not matter if you can't use a toaster. But for most folks - the ability to LEARN - the DESIRE to learn - is what college is trying to give you. Or - education in any form.


With that mind - I'd say if anyone thinks education is unimportant today - maybe they fit all 20 of these points.
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Old 08-17-2020, 10:57 AM
 
Location: interior Alaska
5,398 posts, read 3,870,694 times
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I think we're too concerned about finding scapegoats for why kids aren't hitting arbitrary scores on arbitrary bubble tests at arbitrary ages, and how we score compared to other countries using arbitrary metrics.

I think we don't value actual education - developing real depth and breadth of knowledge of interesting and important topics, intellectual curiosity, logic and reasoning, literacy, etc. - nearly enough. America tends to look down on people who are intellectual as snobs, nerds, disconnected from reality, etc.
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