U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Covid-19 Information Page
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Education
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 08-21-2020, 09:47 AM
 
4,864 posts, read 4,081,415 times
Reputation: 11863

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frostnip View Post
And what percent of Americans actually graduated high school? The high school graduation rate was low by any metric, and that was of people who attempted high school. Most people didn't even start - it was ordinary to be finished after 8th grade. My grandmother, who was from that time, only attended through 6th grade, like most girls in her town. The majority of people did not pursue a formal education beyond "reading, 'riting and 'rithmetic."

She resumed schooling and got her GED in her 60s because she wanted to set a good example for her grandchildren, which I still think is lovely.
This is true, but still... most older people when I was growing up (1970s) could speak and write much better English than newer generations. Not just college grads, but pretty much everyone. They also seemed more mathematically literate.

For all our vaunted universal education with its fancy curricula and methodologies designed by Ph.D.'s from Harvard, we have backslid on the basics.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 08-21-2020, 10:36 AM
 
5,887 posts, read 8,014,824 times
Reputation: 6127
Quote:
Originally Posted by blisterpeanuts View Post
This is true, but still... most older people when I was growing up (1970s) could speak and write much better English than newer generations. Not just college grads, but pretty much everyone. They also seemed more mathematically literate.

For all our vaunted universal education with its fancy curricula and methodologies designed by Ph.D.'s from Harvard, we have backslid on the basics.
This is perception, but not necessarily reality.

Further, keep in mind there are things youth graduating now can do better than anyone in the 70s, including things that weren't even taught back then but also some things that were. Educational emphasis changes over time to match a changing world.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-21-2020, 12:02 PM
 
Location: interior Alaska
5,446 posts, read 3,901,519 times
Reputation: 17328
Quote:
Originally Posted by blisterpeanuts View Post
This is true, but still... most older people when I was growing up (1970s) could speak and write much better English than newer generations. Not just college grads, but pretty much everyone. They also seemed more mathematically literate.
I'm not sure how you're judging this, other than by the circle of people you yourself interacted with? It was very common for elders to have little-to-no English in my community. There were lots of ethnic enclaves in the US at that time. Nowadays all the adults I know other than new immigrants have a reasonable grasp of English.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-21-2020, 09:23 PM
 
Location: Niceville, FL
8,936 posts, read 17,508,285 times
Reputation: 10321
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frostnip View Post
And what percent of Americans actually graduated high school? The high school graduation rate was low by any metric, and that was of people who attempted high school. Most people didn't even start - it was ordinary to be finished after 8th grade. My grandmother, who was from that time, only attended through 6th grade, like most girls in her town. The majority of people did not pursue a formal education beyond "reading, 'riting and 'rithmetic."

She resumed schooling and got her GED in her 60s because she wanted to set a good example for her grandchildren, which I still think is lovely.
My paternal grandmother was forced to drop out of school at age 13 because her father felt like education was wasted in a girl. She went back to school when her youngest was in first grade and not only graduated from high school but also got her LPN degree and learned to speak five language fluently.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-23-2020, 01:58 PM
 
293 posts, read 514,278 times
Reputation: 755
If you talk with a-n-y college or uni professor they will tell you that young people today cannot write. Period. Zero writing ability.

They can't think clearly and form a logical, cogent argument either. Most college students today have never studied Logic, either at uni or even in high school. This is borne out by the increasingly abysmal SAT scores, so much so there has been a wholesale dumbing down of the test at every revision. The high schools have abandoned their responsibility toward today's young by no longer offering Logic as a course choice.

Solid public speaking skills are at an all time low. Of course. How can one speak well when a coherent line of reasoning in presenting an idea isn't present? Simply l-i-s-t-e-n. How often do we hear, "I feel" rather than "I think?" Even speech patterns today---vocal fry, ending every sentence with a rising once reserved for asking a question, etc reveals mental sloppiness.

Colleges and unis also offer innumerable remedial courses in Math. Kids generally aren't ready for college level Mathematics. That, in turn, affects college level Science. Drop out rates for entry level science courses such as Physics, Organic and Inorganic Chemistry in typical state run unis are close to 50%. In my kid's Architecture class it started at approx 180 students. By graduation time there were less than 70. A friend's son experienced the same thing in Engineering school.

Hmm. So that's writing, public speaking, math and science.

What IS it then that "Youth" of today do better than the typical high school grad of the 1970s? A school chum made a computer which performed simple mathematical calculations back in 1965. He took first place in the city wide Science competition in Chicago. Highschool students today couldn't pass tests routinely given to Elementary school children in the 1930s. Those tests included Latin, Algebra, Logic. Where are today's young people better off? I'm NOT blaming the young people. I think at least two generations of people have had p-o-o-r education. They may be schooled but hardly educated.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-23-2020, 02:09 PM
 
Location: Nescopeck, Penna. (birthplace)
13,898 posts, read 8,523,649 times
Reputation: 17977
COVID-19 will, hopefully, be the last nail in the coffin of the folly known as public education. Our schools should be 100% privatized (backed by a voucher system for those who can't afford tuition) and the absurdity of public employee unionization allowed to die a natural death -- since a government-backed monopoly cannot sustain itself, save by force.

The best education is auto-didactic (self--taught) and, with the exception of some highly-technical specialties, I believe that many who excel within specific disciplines attain their prominence mostly via this method. Upon my graduation from college, I went to work for a major trucking line -- unionized and subject to a very complicated system of operating rules, I was told that the fine points would take about two years to master -- that prediction turned out to be suprisingly accurate.

The basics can be taught in a competitive marketplace, and both the technical specifics and "rounding out" accomplished via a knowledge of the arts and humanities can be developed via the "University of Later Life".

Last edited by 2nd trick op; 08-23-2020 at 02:32 PM..
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-23-2020, 04:48 PM
 
4,864 posts, read 4,081,415 times
Reputation: 11863
Quote:
Originally Posted by bungalowdweller View Post
If you talk with a-n-y college or uni professor they will tell you that young people today cannot write. Period. Zero writing ability.

They can't think clearly and form a logical, cogent argument either. Most college students today have never studied Logic, either at uni or even in high school. This is borne out by the increasingly abysmal SAT scores, so much so there has been a wholesale dumbing down of the test at every revision. The high schools have abandoned their responsibility toward today's young by no longer offering Logic as a course choice.

Solid public speaking skills are at an all time low. Of course. How can one speak well when a coherent line of reasoning in presenting an idea isn't present? Simply l-i-s-t-e-n. How often do we hear, "I feel" rather than "I think?" Even speech patterns today---vocal fry, ending every sentence with a rising once reserved for asking a question, etc reveals mental sloppiness.

Colleges and unis also offer innumerable remedial courses in Math. Kids generally aren't ready for college level Mathematics. That, in turn, affects college level Science. Drop out rates for entry level science courses such as Physics, Organic and Inorganic Chemistry in typical state run unis are close to 50%. In my kid's Architecture class it started at approx 180 students. By graduation time there were less than 70. A friend's son experienced the same thing in Engineering school.

Hmm. So that's writing, public speaking, math and science.

What IS it then that "Youth" of today do better than the typical high school grad of the 1970s? A school chum made a computer which performed simple mathematical calculations back in 1965. He took first place in the city wide Science competition in Chicago. Highschool students today couldn't pass tests routinely given to Elementary school children in the 1930s. Those tests included Latin, Algebra, Logic. Where are today's young people better off? I'm NOT blaming the young people. I think at least two generations of people have had p-o-o-r education. They may be schooled but hardly educated.
The answer is, NOTHING. The youth of today have inferior aptitude compared to 40, 50, and 70 years ago. I don't care what these apologists here are claiming. THE KIDS OF TODAY ARE DUMBER. Period!

The College Board has had to dumb down the SAT test over the years; your double 800 SAT score of today or the past ~20 years is not the same achievement that it was in the 1970s.

Why did they dumb it down? To match the lower achievement levels of general K-12 students (the top 10% are still excellent).

Why not maintain high standards and force the kids to step up? Politics. It was felt it was racist or culturally insensitive to make the chronic low achievers learn the ruling class's vocabulary and ideas/logic. So, the tests have been broadened culturally, to be more inclusive. And dumbed down.

Freshman year at public universities has become a remedial grade 12 of high school; some of them are requiring writing courses to teach college students... how to write... because they didn't get that in public school. Pathetic.

Meanwhile, the Japanese, Koreans, and now the Chinese have left us in the dirt. If you want to understand why Americans no longer excel in industry, engineering, science and mathematics, this is why.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-23-2020, 06:15 PM
 
5,925 posts, read 8,832,580 times
Reputation: 6503
Quote:
Originally Posted by ripkobe248 View Post
What if we look at aggregate data in the future and find out that kids doing online school without actually going to school do BETTER.

You know...like look at the data for say kindergarteners that never actually went to school...track their academic scores throughout their path.

I think once things get settled in these children will test as well or better than kids in the previous years who went to school 5 days a week.

Will this show the amount of waste in our education system?

Will some be left scratching their heads thinking why in the world these kids aren’t testing lower?

Will we see that once education is streamlined and made as efficient as possible that we don’t need nearly as much staff/teachers?

What if we can funnel that money into healthcare or something.

Maybe there can actually be some long term benefits to COVID as far as education reform in America....

For the amount of money we spend on education, could we actually just cut a check to every parent running the at-home school show? Maybe like a base salary.

I feel this could completely rip women out of the workplace.

Let’s say every parent not working yet controlling the education of a home-schooled child gets say $10,000/year. Perhaps $5,000 for each additional child they are educating.

Don’t we already spend close to $15,000/year per child?

So are the parents going to develop the lessons? Also many parents want/need to work.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-23-2020, 06:19 PM
 
Location: DMV Area/NYC/Honolulu
19,975 posts, read 9,179,829 times
Reputation: 19568
If everything in the OP was shown to be true, you'd still have to factor that we are in a unique situation where many households that had every parent working now have one if not both (in the case of two parent households) at home due to covid. But that's not sustainable.

That said, and acknowledging that this is anecdotal, my teacher friends are telling me that online instruction is going terribly and that ridiculous standards are being applied to make sure kids don't "fail" and have to repeat the grade, even if they are far below standards in terms of knowledge. Note, this is for NYC specifically.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-24-2020, 12:18 AM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
26,352 posts, read 44,152,076 times
Reputation: 30057
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spazkat9696 View Post
So are the parents going to develop the lessons? Also many parents want/need to work.
There are totally 'canned' k-12 EDU curriculums available for the last 100 yrs or so.

Homeschool groups (not traditional schooling / Public at home) have been doing this for generations.

Very simple. Many people to help you.

Gotta work?, work night shift or weekends. (BTDT for 30+ yrs)

When you bring kids into this world, they are NOT an 'Accessory'. They are for the remainder of your entire life, and the very few yrs they are in your home can be a good time to invest time in them, and a lot cheaper than rehab after they come home from prison or divorce or from choosing bad friends. You can always go back to work after they leave (If you must). Create a home business to teach them your prized skillset. Save them the hassle and cost of learning it on their own.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Education
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:04 AM.

© 2005-2020, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top