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I guess we will just have to agree to disagree, then. This society was not built on group think and indoctrination. The free-thinkers have been the ones to better society, in many cases. People do not need to accept the status quo. Where would we be if the "fringe groups" did not exist to lobby for women's rights to vote and not be beaten by their husbands, for desegregation, for standards placed on the food industry, for safer vaccines, etc, etc, etc? Much of the time, "agendas" seem scary to people, until they become more common, then they are integrated into the "group think."
I'm still not sure which fringe groups you are thinking of, of course. It would be laughable to think that homeschoolers constitute some sort of sinister fringe group, simply because they don't buy into the "public education required for all" mentality. Many homeschoolers are out there lobbying for laws to be passed, participating in community service and church service groups, etc.
Maybe you're thinking of religious groups such as the Amish? They have effectively, in many cases, removed themselves from society. I don't see that they're doing anything wrong, though. And besides, in their own society, they all fit in with each other.
We're not talking total group think indoctrination here but there has to be some thinking of what is good for the group or you don't have a society. It's very hard to make a society out of a group of total individuals all out for their own best interest. To some extent, we have to buy into the idea that we are part of a larger group and pepper our decisions with what is best for that group. If I want to be part of society, I need to refrain from doing things that hurt society and do things that are better for society. I make society better that way. I, however, may not enjoy the best possible life I could have. Someone else, however, will enjoy a better life because of it though.
Actually, the groups that remove themselves from society aren't the real issue as long as they completely do so. It's the ones who still want to take from society but don't want to give. The Amish are a very bad example here because they give to society but don't take. Because they have removed themselves from society, it does not hurt society if they want to educate their children in such as way as not to teach them to work with society, however, they actually do in that they provide us with goods and services.
I'm thinking more of groups that want to live witin society and take what society has to offer but think they're too good to need to buy into being part of society and consider what's best for society. Society falls apart if it's members don't consider what is best for society.
The best example I can think of this is all of the fallen soldiers who died for our freedom. Where would we be today if they had put themselves first? They gave way more than they could ever owe a society. They chose to do what was best for society rather than what was best for them. Yeah, in light of their sacrifices, I think I can buy into a bit of group think and think about what's best for the group before I think about what is best for me.
This is what society, and schools, would be telling my children for 13 years. The first thing you do to pepare yourself for the real world is to go to college. The next step is to take out a student loan to do so. The next step, after obtaining your degree, is to get a job and then what.
Get a loan for a car. Get a loan for college. Get credit cards to live off of, barely, until you can get a job. And before you have it all paid off, get another loan for a house.
I know its very unpatriotic of me but I am teaching my children to earn their money and pay for these things outright, even if that means delaying school until they can afford it or attending part time to put a full time job first to pay for it. I will allow them to use my car until they can purchase their own, in full. Imagine the hundreds of thousands of dollars they will save by doing this. To add to it though, I will encourage my children to find their natural talents and to take courses that further develop those.
We're not talking total group think indoctrination here but there has to be some thinking of what is good for the group or you don't have a society. It's very hard to make a society out of a group of total individuals all out for their own best interest. To some extent, we have to buy into the idea that we are part of a larger group and pepper our decisions with what is best for that group. If I want to be part of society, I need to refrain from doing things that hurt society and do things that are better for society. I make society better that way. I, however, may not enjoy the best possible life I could have. Someone else, however, will enjoy a better life because of it though.
Actually, the groups that remove themselves from society aren't the real issue as long as they completely do so. It's the ones who still want to take from society but don't want to give. The Amish are a very bad example here because they give to society but don't take. Because they have removed themselves from society, it does not hurt society if they want to educate their children in such as way as not to teach them to work with society, however, they actually do in that they provide us with goods and services.
I'm thinking more of groups that want to live witin society and take what society has to offer but think they're too good to need to buy into being part of society and consider what's best for society. Society falls apart if it's members don't consider what is best for society.
The best example I can think of this is all of the fallen soldiers who died for our freedom. Where would we be today if they had put themselves first? They gave way more than they could ever owe a society. They chose to do what was best for society rather than what was best for them. Yeah, in light of their sacrifices, I think I can buy into a bit of group think and think about what's best for the group before I think about what is best for me.
Apparently you did not clilck on the links I provided. The ideas that were presented were not about conforming, they are near eaxct wording for communist education in other parts of the world. This "School to Work" concept actually mirrors what Cuba is doing.
That stat is challenged by the authors I cited/linked.
Hmmm...I can't find my link to that but it may have been a specific state or of boys living in the worst communities or generally in the south. It was a huge long thing about demographics and breaking them up in multiple ways.
We're not talking total group think indoctrination here but there has to be some thinking of what is good for the group or you don't have a society. It's very hard to make a society out of a group of total individuals all out for their own best interest. To some extent, we have to buy into the idea that we are part of a larger group and pepper our decisions with what is best for that group. If I want to be part of society, I need to refrain from doing things that hurt society and do things that are better for society. I make society better that way. I, however, may not enjoy the best possible life I could have. Someone else, however, will enjoy a better life because of it though.
Actually, the groups that remove themselves from society aren't the real issue as long as they completely do so. It's the ones who still want to take from society but don't want to give. The Amish are a very bad example here because they give to society but don't take. Because they have removed themselves from society, it does not hurt society if they want to educate their children in such as way as not to teach them to work with society, however, they actually do in that they provide us with goods and services.
I'm thinking more of groups that want to live witin society and take what society has to offer but think they're too good to need to buy into being part of society and consider what's best for society. Society falls apart if it's members don't consider what is best for society.
The best example I can think of this is all of the fallen soldiers who died for our freedom. Where would we be today if they had put themselves first? They gave way more than they could ever owe a society. They chose to do what was best for society rather than what was best for them. Yeah, in light of their sacrifices, I think I can buy into a bit of group think and think about what's best for the group before I think about what is best for me.
Okay, so then I guess I don't disagree with you as much as I thought. I agree with almost all of what you've said. I think we differ on what we believe is best for society as a whole, and what hurts society as a whole. I hardly think that parents choosing to homeschooling hurts society... from my own experiences, I will say that homeschoolers as a general group give quite a bit to society.
The best example I can think of this is all of the fallen soldiers who died for our freedom. Where would we be today if they had put themselves first?
Is it unpatriotic of me to debate this, even for a moment? There are multiple angles and sides to this.
I guess that would depend on which side you are one, the side where our soldiers are destroying homes of innocent people as well or our side in our cozy homes.
Then you have Liberal VS Conservative and deepening that with extremists on both sides.
Then you have the side of humanity...Is fueding and killing people a good thing with our over crowed plant? In which case, I hope, for the good of the world, you do not value your life above someboy elses, even if they are half a world away.
Then you have the side of nature. Does any species get along harmoniously 100% of the time? I don't think so. Would it unpatriotic to be nuetral on the death of soldier for this reason, because fighting is natural and even ants have certain individuals reserved for fighting? To have no strong feelings about it either way? Would it be better, for nature, if we destroyed ourselves in order support the greater good of this planet?
The idea that we doing something for the good of society is skewed. The idea is that we are supporing the financial world. If you are attached and rely heavily on that financial world and it falls, than you fall with it. Look at the destruction our businesses are having on our planet? How can you support this and call it "patriotic" in any way?
I think that we have lost touch with the planet and that we need to stop thinking we can control it all and bow to the gracious fierce world that has allowed us to exsist as long we have. We need to stop putting business first, all in the name of the great financial good of the world, and begin putting her first before she destroys us. She is gearing up for some natural explosion of some sort and we can do is whine about it but refuse to change the dance steps of our financial lives for it might disupt the system.
Here is another example. The flu. In school, on channel one, on the news everywhere, everyone in “learning” of the danger of this terrifying swine flu. It is incredible that after the bird flu mass hysteria over nothing has not taught us anything. Even more will line up to get a flu shot this year to prevent themselves from getting the flu. They have huge over inflated numbers stating how many people will die in the US. We forget that we are better equipped to treat our symptoms and also have access to any emergency room if something goes terribly wrong and that of the 1000 people in the US to die of the flu, 95% are over the age of 65 and the rest of the 30,000 the report is a number that groups the flu with pneumonia among other things. Will we die if we get the swine flu? Probably not. But our schools are only teaching one side of the story and are assisting in the mass hysteria. Who will hold these “experts” accountable after they report bogus statistics and every single year they start off saying “this will be the worst flu season ever” and at the end of the season they will say, “the flu season was not as bad as we thought it would be.” It makes me think of ……..who is the guy that owns Best Buy….Dunn? For the employees holiday training, he always says the same thing, “This will be the most important holiday season ever.”
It is a marketing ploy to get people to buy into the story and to make them believe they are doing something for the greater good rather than stopping and wondering how this is so.
We are seeing this happening now. But for the good of society, who are we to complain about this?
I have never cared about this stuff and never cared about seeing, or believing, that our government might be turning communist. I just knew I didn't like the idea of them taking over these aspects of everyones lives.
Okay, so then I guess I don't disagree with you as much as I thought. I agree with almost all of what you've said. I think we differ on what we believe is best for society as a whole, and what hurts society as a whole. I hardly think that parents choosing to homeschooling hurts society... from my own experiences, I will say that homeschoolers as a general group give quite a bit to society.
Whether homescholing hurts society depends on how well parents homeschool and whether kids can learn to work as part of a larger group where the group counts more than they do when they have been taught as an individual and that individuality counts more than group membership. In society, the whole should be worth more than the sum of the parts. When the parts value themselves more than other parts, you've got a problem.
If one purpose of education is to benefit society, why individualize it? And will each individual who chooses do it yourself do what is best for society? You have to answer the question "what is the purpose of homescooling?". If it's to prepare children to live in society as part of the group (which, IMO is kind of hard to do if you're removed from the group), and your methods and objectives keep in mind what's best for the group, then things could be ok. If it's because you think your little dahling deserves better than everyone else....you reap what you sow.
My kids are very bright. They'd do fine homeschooled. In fact, I could probably work towards maximizing them if I homeschooled them but I consider their contribution to society more valuable than maximizing their learning. It's more important to me that they be part of the team. Last year, my dd won a math helpers award because she would finish her work and then go help others. At home, I could have used that time to teach her more math but I'm more proud that she helps others than her math grades. Especially since it's something she does when I'm not around orchestrating things. I can plan volunteer activities but you know the lesson has taken when they do it on their own.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 08-25-2009 at 10:10 AM..
I've often been in the position of hiring people. I value employees who can think for themselves and who can work well with others. I don't necessarily think group projects in school make any difference in that way. Kids can learn to work with others through alternative venues. Still, this conspiracy theory that the schools want to dumb down kids or force them towards specific jobs is outdated and silly. What people may or may not have wanted to do several generations ago is hardly relevant to today's economy. Today's employers want people who can think on their feet, who have the knowledge necessary to get things done, and don't need to be constantly told what to do. They also need to be able to work well with others, both coworkers and the public. The government has nothing to gain by a large group of citizens who can't compete in the information age, and a lot to lose.
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