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Oh, no, we don't go to a group homeschool. We do most subjects at home. They don't have the same experiences as traditionally schooled children. If I wanted them to have the 30-hour per week classroom experience, then you are right, it would make more sense to send them to school!
Then you don't have the same kind of group dynamic experience. IMO, that's one of the best things about public school. My kids are exposed to a mixed peer group that is not of my choosing nor are their interactions orchestrated by me. Kind of how it will be in the real world.
Then you don't have the same kind of group dynamic experience. IMO, that's one of the best things about public school. My kids are exposed to a mixed peer group that is not of my choosing nor are their interactions orchestrated by me. Kind of how it will be in the real world.
So, the cheating, bullying, and other common school 'socialization' experiences are desirable, from your perspective?
"...the same kind of group dynamic"
I've already pointed out (and you've already ignored) how unlike the real world the public school is - since work, residence, and social circles are usually very much self-selected situations with narrower ranges of almost everything but age: the opposite of school, with ethnicity/race being inconsistent, setting to setting.
But seriously, [SIZE=2] 86% of high school students agreed that [/SIZE][SIZE=2]most students do cheat at some point. At least [/SIZE][SIZE=2]between 75% of college students surveyed each year report having cheated in high school.
It's the emphasis on grades that drives cheating, along with the looming college admissions process.
There is some cheating in the homeschool scenario, but far less and no culture of it. There is no presumption of cheating.
So, sure, in that way public schools are far more like the real world.
Then you don't have the same kind of group dynamic experience. IMO, that's one of the best things about public school. My kids are exposed to a mixed peer group that is not of my choosing nor are their interactions orchestrated by me. Kind of how it will be in the real world.
So, just to be clear, my kids' interactions with people in the real world are not preparing them for the real world, but your kids' interactions with kids in school do prepare them for the real world?
I don't choose who my kids interact with any more than you do. Yes, many of their friends are homeschoolers, but they are not all white or upper middle class. (My own family is white, but I would not classify us as upper middle class... working class would be more accurate.) They play with kids in the neighborhood (who, by the way, are the exact same kids they'd be sitting with in school if they went) on a daily basis during the summer (not so much during the school year, because those kids are all stuck inside doing homework after school). I don't orchestrate their interactions at all. I and all of the moms sit under the gazebo at the park, and the kids all do what kids do: play, run around, ride bikes, play tennis, climb on the equipment, tattle occasionally, fight occasionally, etc. They go to ballet class and karate class, and the teacher orchestrates their interactions, just like teachers do in school. They play with the neighbors and I'm usually in the house reading a book and enjoying the relative quiet.
Can you give me some specific examples of what exactly your kids do in school that is not done by homeschoolers? I don't mean "group interaction," I mean specific examples.
1) Homeschool coop classes don't have much in common with public school classes. I speak as a former public and private school teacher. Try having an experience before deciding what it must be like.
2) My earliest homeschool class starts at 10:30am. My latest starts (on a different day) at 5:30pm.
Not to mention that most co-op programs don't meet daily or all day, and classes are not limited to children born within an arbitrary time frame. In fact, a couple of classes my daughter is taking this semester have adult students as well as kids as young as eight (foreign language and dance). That's one of the things I like about that particular program, in fact-- having attended a high school where staff members were welcome to sit in on out-of-field classes they found interesting, I've found that widely disparate classmates can lead to a far fuller experience than sitting with only fellow thirteen-year-olds.
N will be attending classes at two different co-ops two days a week, and spending another morning doing a couple of long-term projects with a friend. We "do school" at home three or four days a week, on average, partly through 1:1 study, some independent work, and some virtual school. She also attends religious ed classes with a group of age-mates and riding lessons with kids who are of varied ages, but who have similar disabilities. Overall, her experience is significantly more varied, and both requires and promotes more maturity insofar as executive function and social skills, than that of the neighbor kid who attends a (public) charter school 30 hours a week.
Can you give me some specific examples of what exactly your kids do in school that is not done by homeschoolers? I don't mean "group interaction," I mean specific examples.
Stand in line for twenty minutes to get food that has to be eaten in ten? Make paper footballs to keep boredom at bay? Experience a lock-down?
I suppose the latter could be a valuable real-world experience, the rate things are going. Though probably the adults thought the same thing about the duck & covers I was subjected to as a tad-- and I never have had to crawl under a desk because the sirens signalled a Russian invasion. Good thing, at this point; my knees are not what they were in 1964.
Well, it takes little effort on the part of the supposed-to-be-supervising adult, anyway.
Why would you want to do this the hard way? I'm not going to psychoanalyze every student so I can assign them a role. Putting them in groups and watching them work works just fine. It becomes clear, early on who the leaders are, who the followers are even who the good writers and planners are.
Just because something takes little effort doesn't mean it's not a worthwhile way of doing something. This is how it's done in college and the real world too. You're grouped and roles are figured out amongst the group members. No one figures you out and puts you where they think you belong.
So, just to be clear, my kids' interactions with people in the real world are not preparing them for the real world, but your kids' interactions with kids in school do prepare them for the real world?
I don't choose who my kids interact with any more than you do. Yes, many of their friends are homeschoolers, but they are not all white or upper middle class. (My own family is white, but I would not classify us as upper middle class... working class would be more accurate.) They play with kids in the neighborhood (who, by the way, are the exact same kids they'd be sitting with in school if they went) on a daily basis during the summer (not so much during the school year, because those kids are all stuck inside doing homework after school). I don't orchestrate their interactions at all. I and all of the moms sit under the gazebo at the park, and the kids all do what kids do: play, run around, ride bikes, play tennis, climb on the equipment, tattle occasionally, fight occasionally, etc. They go to ballet class and karate class, and the teacher orchestrates their interactions, just like teachers do in school. They play with the neighbors and I'm usually in the house reading a book and enjoying the relative quiet.
Can you give me some specific examples of what exactly your kids do in school that is not done by homeschoolers? I don't mean "group interaction," I mean specific examples.
Well, my kids are in a mixed group that wasn't picked by mom and it's not a group that comes from similar family backgrounds (homeschooled children, disproportionately, have married parents, mom stays home and their parents are involved in their educations so home lives are similar. Within homeschooled groups, they often share religious similarities as well.). They interact for several hours per day without parental supervision with at group has members from diverse backgrounds. Since one of the things they're supposed to be doing is breaking away from me, I consider this a good thing.
Also the frequency with which they have to work with others mimics the real world. My kids worked in groups daily. They worked out who would perform which roles. Discovered which roles they were good at and have plenty of practice to hone their skills.
They also do a lot of peer learning/teaching. For example, they don't teach our kids how to use a computer in their old school. They hand them one and expect them to use it as a tool. The kids teach themselves and each other the how to's. I'm amazed how easily my kids work in groups. How easy it is for them to both accept instruction from a peer and give it to a peer. Peer teaching/learning is natural to them.
Well, my kids are in a mixed group that wasn't picked by mom and it's not a group that comes from similar family backgrounds (homeschooled children, disproportionately, have married parents, mom stays home and their parents are involved in their educations so home lives are similar. Within homeschooled groups, they often share religious similarities as well.). They interact for several hours per day without parental supervision with at group has members from diverse backgrounds. Since one of the things they're supposed to be doing is breaking away from me, I consider this a good thing.
Okay. I don't pick who homeschools, and I don't pick out our neighborhood children any more than you do. Within a specific school, especially neighborhood elementary schools, the demographics between the students are similar. I belong to both a religious and a secular group, and let me tell you, the parentage runs the gamut: we have lesbian mothers, single mothers, and several homeschooling dads. Homeschoolers are not as homogenous as you may think. I think you are overestimating the amount of time kids interact with one another in school, as well. The majority of the time is not spent "interacting," but listening to the teacher, and being told to "stop whispering!"
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Also the frequency with which they have to work with others mimics the real world. My kids worked in groups daily. They worked out who would perform which roles. Discovered which roles they were good at and have plenty of practice to hone their skills.
I don't know whose real life you're referring to here, but many, many people's "real life" does not include working in groups of people the same age and discovering which roles they would like to have. If you work in an office, you are assigned a role. If you are a teacher, you work on your own most of the day. If you are a stay at home mom, you basically work on your own. Electricians work on their own. Doctors work on their own or in a practice with patients. Relatively few careers include time for people to sit in groups and do whatever the teacher asks them to do.
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They also do a lot of peer learning/teaching. For example, they don't teach our kids how to use a computer in their old school. They hand them one and expect them to use it as a tool. The kids teach themselves and each other the how to's. I'm amazed how easily my kids work in groups. How easy it is for them to both accept instruction from a peer and give it to a peer. Peer teaching/learning is natural to them.
Uh huh, this happens in homeschools/families/co-ops regularly. There is usually no stigma associated with a 10-year-old asking a six year old for help reading a word, or with a teenager explaining something to a five year old.
Again, homeschoolers do not exist in a vacuum. They do not sit home all day with mom. They are out in the real world, living real life.... they don't have to practice for real life, because they are actually living it. I konw that for us, bookwork is finished most days by lunchtime. We then have the rest of the day to be out in that real world.
Okay. I don't pick who homeschools, and I don't pick out our neighborhood children any more than you do. Within a specific school, especially neighborhood elementary schools, the demographics between the students are similar. I belong to both a religious and a secular group, and let me tell you, the parentage runs the gamut: we have lesbian mothers, single mothers, and several homeschooling dads. Homeschoolers are not as homogenous as you may think. I think you are overestimating the amount of time kids interact with one another in school, as well. The majority of the time is not spent "interacting," but listening to the teacher, and being told to "stop whispering!"
I don't know whose real life you're referring to here, but many, many people's "real life" does not include working in groups of people the same age and discovering which roles they would like to have. If you work in an office, you are assigned a role. If you are a teacher, you work on your own most of the day. If you are a stay at home mom, you basically work on your own. Electricians work on their own. Doctors work on their own or in a practice with patients. Relatively few careers include time for people to sit in groups and do whatever the teacher asks them to do.
Uh huh, this happens in homeschools/families/co-ops regularly. There is usually no stigma associated with a 10-year-old asking a six year old for help reading a word, or with a teenager explaining something to a five year old.
Again, homeschoolers do not exist in a vacuum. They do not sit home all day with mom. They are out in the real world, living real life.... they don't have to practice for real life, because they are actually living it. I konw that for us, bookwork is finished most days by lunchtime. We then have the rest of the day to be out in that real world.
The point is the families are similar and you do pick the group you associate with. My kids go to school with kids from divorced families, with parents who never wed, foster kids, kids being raised by grand parents, kids who working mothers, stay at home mothers, etc, etc, etc... as well as kids from two parent families who have involved parents like them. School is more like real life.
I didn't say homeschoolers exist in a vaccuum. I said my kids spend more time in a peer to peer group without parental supervision. I said the group is more diverse. We have what you have in homeschooling times ten. What percentage of homeschooled kids in your group have divorced parents? Are living with grand parents? How many have had a parent die? How many don't have a stay at home parent?
You are talking about a group that is very much chosen over one that includes everyone in the area.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 08-26-2009 at 04:18 PM..
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