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Yes, but unfortunately, there are millions of dumb-a** Americans who buy every bit of it: hook, line and sinker. Obama's black, he has a weird name--who the hell does this uppity Negro think he is???
Guess that's what happens when the educational system fails.
Actually it seems you dont have a problem with Socialism/Marxism, you just dont like it being pointed out, like most on the left........
Going back to the quote from Norman Thomas again.
"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism, but under the name of liberalism, they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program until one day America will be a socialist nation without ever knowing how it happened."
"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism, but under the name of liberalism, they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program until one day America will be a socialist nation without ever knowing how it happened."
Perhaps that is why they take such offense when called on it , they hate to think their cover is blown!
Progessive we are Progressive the word is Progressive........
I think perhaps people ought to cool off a little and stop the name calling. That being said, I feel that this whole rhetorical tactic of linking Obama with socialism (or even Marxism) seems silly. To my understanding, it all started with the claim that Obama wanted to "spread the wealth," which I could see being tracked to socialism in a very contextualized way, but that would fall into the assumption that any sort of taxing of the rich for the sake of economic stability by default is "socialistic".
And how do people react to the word "socialism"? They may not know what it is, but they fear it. And who fears it? An older generation, or at least one with some relation to the McCarthyist ideology of the Cold War. Back then, I assume socialism was bad because it was not democratic capitalism, America's stars and stripes; socialism was of the USSR, and that was the enemy. Really, it's just another form of economy. The superstructural and organizational systems of socialist countries, correct me if I'm wrong, are not the same thing as the economic theory (though I’m sure they all supplement each other).
That being said, I feel there is a strong reliance on every day Americans' lack of education on the subject coming from the McCain campaign. Socialism is a scary "other" which proved to be burdensome in America's past--I figure that this is how people approach the subject deep down. Really, I don't think it's possible to have any sort of pure socialism in the wake of global capitalism. China, probably the most well known "Communist" country in this age, doesn't follow a pure socialistic economic ideology. Hugo Chavez, the president of Venesuela, endorses socialism purely to oppose American ideals, and in his country, it's even hard to stick to socialistic ideals in the wake of global capitalism.
Socialism is not something people need to worry about. What people ought to worry about, in my opinion, is how to fix and regulate a productive and relevant global capitalism for countries other than the G8. In a meeting today in Maryland, George W Bush and France's president Nicolas Sarkozy discussed this very issue.
If American ideologies were honestly being threatened, I feel that a) someone other than Obama's rival would step up and say something and b) the rest of the world would take the notion of America perhaps becoming socialistic a little more seriously and raise their voices as well.
Really, I feel the whole claim that Obama is a socialist and will transform America into a socialist country (USSA someone else called it) seems more of a scare tactic or an excuse for deeply seeded conservatives, racists, zealots, or whomever to justify their dislike for Obama more than anything else.
The claims that he is a Marxist are even less likely. To be a basic Marxist at the most fundamental level, I'm fairly certain that there are two prerequisites:
1) You must believe in class struggle, which has nothing to do with sociological "classes" (upper, middle, lower class, etc.). Class struggle is more or less Marx and Engel's materialistic interpretation of Hegelian theories of historical and ideological eschatology (all thoughts syphon out into a few main thoughts which duke it out until only one is left).
2) You must believe that and work toward the proletariate class's inevitable overthrow of the bourgeoisie.
*Note: The other main reason, I think, for conservatives disliking socialism is because it implies big government. One of the premises of the Republican party is small government (as long as Republicans are right-wing), though I'm not a wiz on how neoconservative Republican ideology operates. I don't know how much this has to do with the rest of what I said. It may be more or less an aside.
Anytime income taxes fall into a negative % you must question what's really going on.
Socialism has an ugly face because it's failed so many times and has become so oppressive in so many cases.
No state has ever been communist.
Class struggle is exactly what "social justice" is all about.
There is no scare tactic. If it's a scare tactic then you need to also look at the other side of the coil in Obama providing a Utopian solution if objectivity is your cup of tea.
History shows socialism is more common than capitalism has ever been. People fear it because4 bigger government is why our founding fore fathers decided to find another place to live.
If you think socialism is something no one needs to worry about please get the wedgy board out and talk to the 150 million that died under the name of collectivism.
Collectivism is all wonderful and dandy till a nut case takes control. Then anyone dissenting from the view point of the "almighty" will be taken care of. History says they end up in concentration camps.
"Self-delusion in the face of unpleasant facts is folly"
no, but its not that simple. if you have children this is where mccains proposal could really come in handy, effectively doubling the current deduction per child.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mary54mi
Spreading the wealth down is socialist. By the way no communist society has ever lasted. WAKE UP!
well actually china is really successful, but years ago they started to open to free markets and semi-capitalism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJon3475
Going back to the quote from Norman Thomas again.
"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism, but under the name of liberalism, they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program until one day America will be a socialist nation without ever knowing how it happened."
and he would know, he was a socialist, lol. great posts bigjon
Quote:
Originally Posted by camcamerson
I think perhaps people ought to cool off a little and stop the name calling. That being said, I feel that this whole rhetorical tactic of linking Obama with socialism (or even Marxism) seems silly. To my understanding, it all started with the claim that Obama wanted to "spread the wealth," which I could see being tracked to socialism in a very contextualized way, but that would fall into the assumption that any sort of taxing of the rich for the sake of economic stability by default is "socialistic".
And how do people react to the word "socialism"? They may not know what it is, but they fear it. And who fears it? An older generation, or at least one with some relation to the McCarthyist ideology of the Cold War. Back then, I assume socialism was bad because it was not democratic capitalism, America's stars and stripes; socialism was of the USSR, and that was the enemy. Really, it's just another form of economy. The superstructural and organizational systems of socialist countries, correct me if I'm wrong, are not the same thing as the economic theory (though I’m sure they all supplement each other).
That being said, I feel there is a strong reliance on every day Americans' lack of education on the subject coming from the McCain campaign. Socialism is a scary "other" which proved to be burdensome in America's past--I figure that this is how people approach the subject deep down. Really, I don't think it's possible to have any sort of pure socialism in the wake of global capitalism. China, probably the most well known "Communist" country in this age, doesn't follow a pure socialistic economic ideology. Hugo Chavez, the president of Venesuela, endorses socialism purely to oppose American ideals, and in his country, it's even hard to stick to socialistic ideals in the wake of global capitalism.
Socialism is not something people need to worry about. What people ought to worry about, in my opinion, is how to fix and regulate a productive and relevant global capitalism for countries other than the G8. In a meeting today in Maryland, George W Bush and France's president Nicolas Sarkozy discussed this very issue.
If American ideologies were honestly being threatened, I feel that a) someone other than Obama's rival would step up and say something and b) the rest of the world would take the notion of America perhaps becoming socialistic a little more seriously and raise their voices as well.
Really, I feel the whole claim that Obama is a socialist and will transform America into a socialist country (USSA someone else called it) seems more of a scare tactic or an excuse for deeply seeded conservatives, racists, zealots, or whomever to justify their dislike for Obama more than anything else.
The claims that he is a Marxist are even less likely. To be a basic Marxist at the most fundamental level, I'm fairly certain that there are two prerequisites:
1) You must believe in class struggle, which has nothing to do with sociological "classes" (upper, middle, lower class, etc.). Class struggle is more or less Marx and Engel's materialistic interpretation of Hegelian theories of historical and ideological eschatology (all thoughts syphon out into a few main thoughts which duke it out until only one is left).
2) You must believe that and work toward the proletariate class's inevitable overthrow of the bourgeoisie.
*Note: The other main reason, I think, for conservatives disliking socialism is because it implies big government. One of the premises of the Republican party is small government (as long as Republicans are right-wing), though I'm not a wiz on how neoconservative Republican ideology operates. I don't know how much this has to do with the rest of what I said. It may be more or less an aside.
how about when obama joined the socialist party in illinois in the mid 90's? same time he started to associate with ayers and other socialists.
like bigjon said, he may not make america socialist but he has EVERY intention of paving the way
"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism, but under the name of liberalism, they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program until one day America will be a socialist nation without ever knowing how it happened." - Norman Thomas
our economy is having a hard time right now, but wealth in the US has INCREASED 20% since the clinton administration. simply from tax cuts and job creation. i live in florida, for years we couldnt fill the jobs, for years. everything from construction to nurses and school teachers.
Anytime income taxes fall into a negative % you must question what's really going on.
Socialism has an ugly face because it's failed so many times and has become so oppressive in so many cases.
No state has ever been communist.
Class struggle is exactly what "social justice" is all about.
There is no scare tactic. If it's a scare tactic then you need to also look at the other side of the coil in Obama providing a Utopian solution if objectivity is your cup of tea.
History shows socialism is more common than capitalism has ever been. People fear it because4 bigger government is why our founding fore fathers decided to find another place to live.
If you think socialism is something no one needs to worry about please get the wedgy board out and talk to the 150 million that died under the name of collectivism.
Collectivism is all wonderful and dandy till a nut case takes control. Then anyone dissenting from the view point of the "almighty" will be taken care of. History says they end up in concentration camps.
"Self-delusion in the face of unpleasant facts is folly"
Class struggle is a little different. It's an abstract thought about the superstructural workings of an evolved society which, in The German Ideology, Marx traces back to primitive systems of culture. Class struggle is kind of a misleading name. It has very little to do with "class" in the way we use the word class. It's kind of like a giant math equation. Regardless of if people fight for the proletariate or not, the proletariat always wins because that's the way the superstructure is set up and has always been set up and, if history continues the way it has for the scope of human civilization, it always will. Or at least this is Marx's thesis.
America is a MAJOR influence on the world. It won't become socialistic. It can't. Period. Obama is not a socialist. He won't even socialize health care. That's probably the most successful socialistic practice in the modern world. Look at England or France or Canada. People have to get really nitty gritty in terms of numbers and percentages in order to prove that somehow, in some vague and contextualized way, Obama is a socialist, and even then, this is just a statement. The "socialism is bad!" part is left out because it is somehow supposed to be a given.
Collectivism is a anthropological theory in the relationship of people in a culture. It has nothing to do with socialism. At all. The opposite of collectivism is individualism. Certain sociocultural groups are collectivistic, even within America. For example, hispanics and latinos. Or church going black folk. Or inner city Vietnamese people. But this is anthropology, not economics.
And modern history shows that socialism is a failure in a global capitalistic enviornment. Look at China. Do you see much socialist economics? The world is governed by global capitalism. America, sorrowfully, is starting to lag behind in the progression of global capitalism. That's one of the big deals and issues regarding this current economic crisis. If there was threat of America potentially becoming socialistic economically, then I think the fear in "Washington"-- or whatever metonym for political thought you want to use--would be escalated a little more than just in the mind of John McCain's followers. It would become a global issue, not just a political platform tactic.
obama's plan taxes anyone over $250k and the "REDISTRIBUTES" the wealth to WELFARE RECIPIANTS. do you understand yet? 60 million people will get a check for $500 for NO REASON. none of them are paying taxes, they are on WELFARE. now that's how you get votes! that is SOCIALISM, communism's pretty cousin.
Bush's tax plan of 2003 did exactly the same thing by increasing the child care tax credit from $600 to $1,000, and according to the Wall Street Journal, 'bumping a touch more than three million taxpayers right off the rolls'. Since this is a refundable tax credit it also provided cash refunds to those that paid no income tax.
A socialist government is one in which the government owns the assets of industry. Nothing Obama is proposing comes close to socialism, but the bank rescue plan does.
Class struggle is a little different. It's an abstract thought about the superstructural workings of an evolved society which, in The German Ideology, Marx traces back to primitive systems of culture. Class struggle is kind of a misleading name. It has very little to do with "class" in the way we use the word class. It's kind of like a giant math equation. Regardless of if people fight for the proletariate or not, the proletariat always wins because that's the way the superstructure is set up and has always been set up and, if history continues the way it has for the scope of human civilization, it always will. Or at least this is Marx's thesis.
America is a MAJOR influence on the world. It won't become socialistic. It can't. Period. Obama is not a socialist. He won't even socialize health care. That's probably the most successful socialistic practice in the modern world. Look at England or France or Canada. People have to get really nitty gritty in terms of numbers and percentages in order to prove that somehow, in some vague and contextualized way, Obama is a socialist, and even then, this is just a statement. The "socialism is bad!" part is left out because it is somehow supposed to be a given.
Collectivism is a anthropological theory in the relationship of people in a culture. It has nothing to do with socialism. At all. The opposite of collectivism is individualism. Certain sociocultural groups are collectivistic, even within America. For example, hispanics and latinos. Or church going black folk. Or inner city Vietnamese people. But this is anthropology, not economics.
And modern history shows that socialism is a failure in a global capitalistic enviornment. Look at China. Do you see much socialist economics? The world is governed by global capitalism. America, sorrowfully, is starting to lag behind in the progression of global capitalism. That's one of the big deals and issues regarding this current economic crisis. If there was threat of America potentially becoming socialistic economically, then I think the fear in "Washington"-- or whatever metonym for political thought you want to use--would be escalated a little more than just in the mind of John McCain's followers. It would become a global issue, not just a political platform tactic.
and how do you feel about obama's belief in black liberation theology?
we aren't a serious country anymore. spending is ridiculous. earmarks have run wild, riders out of hand. we need serious people with serious solutions. education system is a failing institution that needs to be privatized and rewarded based on success. welfare has its own society now rather than an alternative option for those who need it.
Nothing Obama is proposing comes close to socialism, but the bank rescue plan does.
This is true.
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