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I'm sure most of us males have some female friends that are just as equally friends to us as out male friends. Me too. So, i show up at the house of one of my female friends, we chat, and while we're at it, i'll proceed to hug her, then hold her hands, then kiss her on the cheek. Even if she's perfectly comfortable with it, what is her husband/boyfriend/girlfriend/whatever sitting next to us going to think about it?
"Personal space" and general manners. Respect them, and you'll avoid a whole lot of misunderstandings, funny looks, and fistfights. Can two human beings not be good friends without taking the relationship to much of a physical level?
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic_Vega
"Normal in other societies", can you be more specific? I can't think of any European society where interaction such as holding hands or kissing on cheeks on a non-joking basis would be the norm between your average heterosexual males? I can tell you, it sure is not where i live, and this has nothing to do with "macho insecurity" or homophobia. It is just not part of the local culture or customs, and i cannot think of any reason why it should be. We respect others beliefs about "personal space" and in general manners while interacting with each other.
I was about to say the same, but had to write a little more. Many of the posters in this thread seem to be far out of touch with reality, real everyday life.
Let's see, men in Spain, France, Italy, and most of Eastern Europe kiss each other on the cheek as a form of greeting etc (I'm not saying it may be as widespread as it once was in these countries, due to the American-imported stigma). Go to India and you see many straight male friends holding hands (yes, holding hands), with their arms around their shoulders etc. Yes it may look weird to you and me because we're not used to it, but it doesn't mean they're gay or anything like that. No more than women in the west who do it are. Why are women allowed to get away with that sort of thing and not be harrassed about being a lesbian but men aren't? Makes no sense to me.
Let's see, men in Spain, France, Italy, and most of Eastern Europe kiss each other on the cheek as a form of greeting etc (I'm not saying it may be as widespread as it once was in these countries, due to the American-imported stigma). Go to India and you see many straight male friends holding hands (yes, holding hands), with their arms around their shoulders etc. Yes it may look weird to you and me because we're not used to it, but it doesn't mean they're gay or anything like that. No more than women in the west who do it are. Why are women allowed to get away with that sort of thing and not be harrassed about being a lesbian but men aren't? Makes no sense to me.
Trimac20 is absolutely correct. I have seen it all over the south of Europe. What are considered normal customs in the Mediterranean countries are, for some reason, considered "gay" in many parts of the United States, such as rural areas and ex-urbs of medium or small cities.
As someone else noted, it is not necessarily true in the large cities which have more culture and less machismo. In the larger cities, men such as I originally described (stereotypically white, rural, Southern, religious conservative mindset, undereducated and unenlightened) are less commonly found than they tend to be outside the large cities. In larger cities of the United States, men tend to have a more cultured European mindset than men from rural areas. Again, cultured men can be found anywhere, and the other type can also be found anywhere. But as a general rule, cultured men tend to prefer the large cities, because people there tend to be more...cultured.
One of the pecularities of American culture? A woman is free to say: I'm going out with my girl-friend tonite, or my girl-friend is coming over to spend the nite.
And men? I'm going out with my boy-friends tonite? Oh, no-no-no! I'm going out with my buddies!
Women freely dance together on a dance floor together, and men? Heavens f-o-r-b-i-d!
While I think the stereotypes of men in the United States as well as those in Europe are generalizations, most stereotypes have an element of truth. It is certainly true that some American men have intimacy and masculinity issues, but I have observed this to be the case mostly among men who are of lower socio-economic status and have less education. While not exclusively so, these men tend to be white, southern, conservative, and have either a high school education or some college, but not a four-year Bachelor degree. It is also common for them to belong to a conservative protestant Christian denomination, but again, that is not always the case.
Many American men who are raised in the above-mentioned type of atmosphere appear to have issues with men who they perceive to be "different" than themselves in some way. They sometimes make judgments about other men who dress or act in a way that these men do not consider macho or masculine. When they see men who wear fashionable clothes (whatever the cutting edge style happens to be at the time), or men who act in what these men consider an effeminate manner, it is not uncommon for these men to presume that the other men are gay.
To offer a couple of examples: in certain rural or ex-urban areas of the United States, men would make negative judgments about a man they might observe wearing capris. In most other countries in the world, no one would even care about this. But in some parts of the United States, a guy wearing capris or designer tight jeans and a tight t-shirt would be presumed gay. By the same token, if two guys are observed embracing each other in public (not just a back-slapping macho-style quick hug), in some areas of the United States, they would be considered to be gay. This is not the case in western Europe; no one would think there was anything strange about it.
Much of this macho insecurity complex in American men who come from this background have deep-seated issues that have been instilled in them from an early age. When people hate other people, they hate something that they perceive in the other person that is part of themselves. What isn't part of themselves doesn't disturb them.
Yes, and a man wearing baggy jeans and white sneakers would probably be the object of derision in some European cities. Likewise, some of the most homophobic regions of the world are the most open to affectionate male contact (the Middle East, North Africa, etc.). And I doubt that male physical contact would be accepted as perfectly normal and straight in the United Kingdom or northern Europe.
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvdxer
Yes, and a man wearing baggy jeans and white sneakers would probably be the object of derision in some European cities. Likewise, some of the most homophobic regions of the world are the most open to affectionate male contact (the Middle East, North Africa, etc.). And I doubt that male physical contact would be accepted as perfectly normal and straight in the United Kingdom or northern Europe.
Honestly, if there weren't so many unwritten rules as to what is 'gay' or 'too affectionate' than we'd be a alot more relaxed, and wouldn't insecurely interpret everything in a sexual way.
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,544 posts, read 56,081,790 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tijlover
One of the pecularities of American culture? A woman is free to say: I'm going out with my girl-friend tonite, or my girl-friend is coming over to spend the nite.
And men? I'm going out with my boy-friends tonite? Oh, no-no-no! I'm going out with my buddies!
Women freely dance together on a dance floor together, and men? Heavens f-o-r-b-i-d!
Yes, I always wondered why alot of women had to specify their friends were 'girl-friends' instead of just friends.
Women are just alot more free and comfortable with each other. Maybe because if two men dance together and one gets turned on, everyone will know, lol.
There is a website i visit with pictures of nightlife from all over the world. I can tell you that by far and away American men look the most macho. Most European men have the boy next door look while American men have a dominant look, at least the type that go to clubs, What surprises me is that Latin American men, who are thought of as macho, look nice and sweet compared to American men.
I noticed that a skinny build is taboo for American men but common in most of Europe and Latin America (and I'm sure Asia as well). It's just amazing to see these kind looking skinny guys, no tattoos, no signs of excess masculinity, hanging out with beautiful girls. I am in awe this still exists in 2010, yet it seems to be common in much of the world.
Where I differ from the OP is that I don't blame American men. It's the American women who demand macho men. American women are not attracted to men who are not dominant looking and acting. So the guys are just giving the women what they want.
Y'know, I think you are right. I'm an American. I left the States in 1996, and generally been living abroad. My dating is absolutely fine in Asia, Europe, and South America (all places I've lived). When I lived in the States, I generally only dated non-American women. I have a very average build - not skinny, not fat, not muscular, just lean and quick and light and average.
In the States, there is an unwritten rule that women should be smaller than the guy. However, you don't have many small women. So thats a problem right there for an average guy.
Plus, most women in the States actually DO prefer the bulkier, fatter, well-fed guys. I think it makes for the already larger women to feel better about their own eating habits as well. They go hand in hand in that manner. I think it goes back to the diet.
That being said. It is very different in different parts of the States. Seattle and Portland are famous for being filled with skinny pale introverted guys who are very popular with women. So, it really varies significantly within the States.
Being that I grew up in the MidWest...people are just larger in general there. More farmboys (and girls)...sports dominates that region. So, bigger is perceived as better across the board. Plus if a person is normal weight or certainly less than normal, pretty much everyone (generally all the overweight people) are going to insist that they are starving themselves and need to eat more...lol
Let's see, men in Spain, France, Italy, and most of Eastern Europe kiss each other on the cheek as a form of greeting etc (I'm not saying it may be as widespread as it once was in these countries, due to the American-imported stigma). Go to India and you see many straight male friends holding hands (yes, holding hands), with their arms around their shoulders etc. Yes it may look weird to you and me because we're not used to it, but it doesn't mean they're gay or anything like that. No more than women in the west who do it are. Why are women allowed to get away with that sort of thing and not be harrassed about being a lesbian but men aren't? Makes no sense to me.
I'm Spanish and I've never, I repeat never, seen two men kissing each other on the cheek. There was never such a custom - I'm afraid you're making that up.
And no, I don't feel like giving my male friends a French kiss or throwing a pyjama party, and I don't feel my life is poorer because of it. I don't care if women do it. I don't feel any need to "embrace my inner woman". We're reaching a point where being a man is considered a mental disease that needs to be treated.
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Makes no sense to me.
