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I'm an American but I did live in Germany for 10 years (8 of them in Bavaria). I managed to learn so many several Bavarian dialects that I can no longer speak proper high German (without making a special effort).
I've spent a lot of time in Munich as well, thus I've been able to form an opinion based on years of experience as an expat (plus lots of expat friends in Munich, everything from 1860 Munich players to Siemens employees...). Its a great city, but not without its limitations, especially for non-Bavarians.
Cologne is a good option as well, and perhaps an easier place for an auslaender to get started. Its a lively, tolerant city with a bit more creative flair to it.
I have to agree that Munich can be a hard place to make friends if you're an American. I speak fluent German but not the Munich dialect and this presented many problems. I couldn't believe that such a small thing (in my eyes) meant such a big deal to them.
In the years I lived there, sadly I never made a real friend. I had German acquaintances and people I felt fairly close to, but there was always a barrier. The analogy of Bavarians and Texans is an excellent one. They tend to discriminate against any outsider, even among Germans from other places outside of Oberbayern. Maybe I was just running in the wrong circles or never met the right people.
For me, there is no greater city in Europe than Munich. But get used to being a loner because it's extremely difficult to break into their little clique, at least in my experience. My husband is from Frankfurt and he was also treated with contempt in Munich. In many places, his accent was belittled and he was constantly called "der blinde Hesse."
I am of mixed ancestry if you want to call it that - Bavarian and Sueben. Two people who still do not mix well as far as culture, cooking, language, general approach on life goes. When my parents found out I planned to marry an American and to top it off red-feather it went fairly well. At least he was not from across the Danube:>) By now he has no American mannerisms or accent. An occasional laps into Bavarian and my father is up in arms. Yes, we are fairly educated, moved across several continents are havew hopefully found a home in Alabama. They may have tried to reinvent the wheel but are a couple of hundred years behind us:>)))
Why should Munich "embrace diversity". It's wrong to make the assumption a place without diversity cannot be full of positive and exiticing energy. I'm not sure if you want another Londonistan. I don't expect or want to see a Dublin when I travel to Budapest. Munich can be exciting and at the same time retain what distinguish it from other cities. Besides, what is exciting to one person can be boring to another. Some people love going to nice museums. Others might find that very boring. With exciting, I suppose you're thinking of night life.
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Originally Posted by CBB
Munich is a nice (and very safe) place to live, but it does not really embrace diversity and therefore isn't as full of positive and exciting energy as some other cities in Germany (Berlin, Hamburg, Cologne and others).
I agree with you. I personally don't want Munich to "embrace diversity" either. Make a trip to downtown Frankfurt and you'll see what "diversity" has done to the city.
You respect diversity more if you let places retain their unique characteristics. It's funny how proponents of diversity seriously believe you get more diversity in every respect of life if everywhere becomes almost the same.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulysses61
I agree with you. I personally don't want Munich to "embrace diversity" either. Make a trip to downtown Frankfurt and you'll see what "diversity" has done to the city.
Munich is a great city with a few quirks you should be aware of (in case you are moving there):
-Bavarians are like Texans - loud and proud. This also means they can be incredibly fun or downright snotty, you just never know.
-The sidewalks roll up around midnight - unless you know where to go.
-Bavarians tend to have their own tight little circle of friends which are extremely hard to break in with (it can take years). That having been said, once you're in - you're in for life.
-Its a wealthy city filled with young people whose Mommies and Daddies spoil them rotten. Thus, you'll meet lots of boorish, self important kids who have never worked a day in their life.
-The city attracts lots of ambitious people from all over Germany (and the world). The most fascinating people you'll meet there are often not native Muencheners but people from Karlsruhe, Paderborn, Vienna, Peru, Delhi, etc.
For the young, creative, and ambitious - I suggest London, New York, Seattle, or Berlin. I love Munich but it does not have the same energy level as the places I just listed. Its a bit more on the chilled side. If that is your thing, go for it.
I think your assesments are right on here. I am an American living in Bitburg, and I'm having trouble making any 'real' friends. Sure, people will chat with you at a bar, but the Germans seem pretty 'stand offish'? Any tips on what to do? How to make friends easier? Do they dislike Americans? I am a bit disappointed since I got here 4 months ago...I thought it would be much easier than it has been.
I think your assesments are right on here. I am an American living in Bitburg, and I'm having trouble making any 'real' friends. Sure, people will chat with you at a bar, but the Germans seem pretty 'stand offish'? Any tips on what to do? How to make friends easier? Do they dislike Americans? I am a bit disappointed since I got here 4 months ago...I thought it would be much easier than it has been.
Germans, by and large, take friendship seriously. Two people will often keep a formal veneer for quite a long time before deciding that, yes, they are indeed friends and then everything changes.
The upside to this is that when a German has a friend, the person is truly a friend, not simply a casual aquaintance. This is clearly very admirable and from the heart.
The downside can be a situation like yours. Overt overtures of friendship would probably be dismissed as superficial although you may be sincere in your efforts.
Also, Germans in the North tend to be a bit more affable than those in the South.
My advice would be to relocate to a place like Berlin or Hamburg where the people are a bit more unconventional. If you cannot, then play by their rules. Pick one Kneipe (local pub) that you like and go there frequently. Observe their customs, familiarize yourself with German issues and defer to the locals i.e. don't take over their place. When you raise your glass for a toast, make sure you look at the person eye to eye.
It will take some time, but once you have a German friend, you have one for life.
This is an interesting post. I know Munich very well. I am a dual citizen EU-US, but I am not German. I love Munich. I have never had any problems making friends with the natives there. My ex-wife is from there. It's an excellent place to live and raise a family.
Munich is awesome if you love the mountains and want to be close to Italy. if not, there are places just as good - if you like hip, artsy, and family friendly cities, than I'd consider either Berlin or Cologne.
Berlin has a great relocation guide (in English) for new immigrants, they want people to relocate there, and I would be happy to send it to the OP, if they send me a private message.
Finally, if we are talking diversity, take my word for it - Frankfurt is just about as diverse as one can get in Europe (behind Paris & London, of course), and it's a great city. It gets a bad rap by a lot of people, because they feel the city is not attractive, but I love the city.
...so in Germany, you've got a choice. Even Dusseldorf is great, especially if you work in the fashion industry. Frankfurt for finance, banking and multinationals, Munich for multinationals, and Berlin and Cologne are the best if you want to be an entrepreneur.
Germans, by and large, take friendship seriously. Two people will often keep a formal veneer for quite a long time before deciding that, yes, they are indeed friends and then everything changes.
The upside to this is that when a German has a friend, the person is truly a friend, not simply a casual aquaintance. This is clearly very admirable and from the heart.
The downside can be a situation like yours. Overt overtures of friendship would probably be dismissed as superficial although you may be sincere in your efforts.
Also, Germans in the North tend to be a bit more affable than those in the South.
My advice would be to relocate to a place like Berlin or Hamburg where the people are a bit more unconventional. If you cannot, then play by their rules. Pick one Kneipe (local pub) that you like and go there frequently. Observe their customs, familiarize yourself with German issues and defer to the locals i.e. don't take over their place. When you raise your glass for a toast, make sure you look at the person eye to eye.
It will take some time, but once you have a German friend, you have one for life.
I totally agree with the advice - and the key is patience. They will be your friends for life. I should know as I have some wonderful German friends. It's an awesome country. Be patient, and it will pay off. No superficiality.
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