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Old 03-03-2018, 02:24 AM
 
Location: Europe
4,692 posts, read 1,164,185 times
Reputation: 924

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maksim_Frolov View Post
"join alliance" - yes. "join Russia" - no.



Time shows that Yanukovych was right when he chose an alliance with Russia.



Ukraine WAS choose "Europe". Or rather, Ukraine thought that chose Europe. In reality, it turned out to be a pawn in the hands of the Americans. It will come to crash of Ukraine.
Whithout Ukraine Russia is just nomad territory coming to down and desassembly
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Old 03-03-2018, 05:56 AM
 
Location: South Jersey
14,497 posts, read 9,428,386 times
Reputation: 5251
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milky Way Resident View Post
True




Wrong. History is irrelevant. Politics is all about the alignment of interests. If those two cross paths then they will form an alliance.
Don't think much about history as it's not important. It should only ever be used for educational purposes.
I mostly agree. It's about alignment of interests. The reason for the axiom that "history repeats itself" is the interests and actors tend to remain relatively constant over time. Conflicts of interest between countries involving very similar issues are likely to persist and may become future flash points. There's no magical reason for history to repeat itself, otherwise.

The present Russia/Ukraine conflict would have been more foreseeable to someone who knows history (e.g., consider the the Ukrainian war for independence a century ago) and doesn't naively assume that Ukraine and Russia are very similar in the outlooks. Ukraine's desire to align more closely with Western Europe conflicts with Russia's longstanding position on its right to exert a certain sphere of influence.
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Old 03-03-2018, 08:41 AM
 
9,511 posts, read 5,435,134 times
Reputation: 9092
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milky Way Resident View Post
True




Wrong. History is irrelevant. Politics is all about the alignment of interests. If those two cross paths then they will form an alliance.
Don't think much about history as it's not important. It should only ever be used for educational purposes.

If past wrongdoings were that important, then the US and the UK would never have reconciled their differences as the latter one tried to prevent the first one from gaining independence. Germany would never have been accepted in the EU due to it's role in WW1 & 2.

People use history to justify their beliefs, but those are just emotions running wild, playing tricks with the mind.
History only works if you consider it in it's totality, which means that every event should be given prominence. If that condition cannot be satisfied, then history loses it's value as it becomes a slave to time and humans become chained to the darkness that comes before.
Our recorded history is the greatest asset humanity has available to us. It's a record of the road behind us and every mistake and every achievement we've made. The geological record shows us instances of catastrophic events which changed the face of our world, sent entire phyla into the dark abyss of extinction and gave rise to others. Were history properly used and HEEDED we would not be on the path we are today, repeating the mistakes of the past. The minds of reptiles have no ability to reason using the tools available to them history being the most important in the bag. Reptile minds do not adapt, they keep doing the same thing over and over never changing the lane in which they walk. They disdain history, distort it to suit their purposes and do humanity a disservice.

How history is utilized makes it good or bad, just like a rifle. What is happening today is the result of human stupidity which leads nations to once again repeat mistakes made in the past.
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Old 03-03-2018, 08:48 AM
 
9,511 posts, read 5,435,134 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snj90 View Post

The present Russia/Ukraine conflict would have been more foreseeable to someone who knows history (e.g., consider the the Ukrainian war for independence a century ago) and doesn't naively assume that Ukraine and Russia are very similar in the outlooks. Ukraine's desire to align more closely with Western Europe conflicts with Russia's longstanding position on its right to exert a certain sphere of influence.
The present conflict between ukraine and Russia is a result of manipulating by all powers concerned, the well being of common people a far second to the wants of the elites. The outlooks of Russian and Ukrainian people ,their wants and needs hopes and fears are the same.

Your statement applies to a small minority of elites, not to people.
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Old 03-03-2018, 03:23 PM
DKM
 
Location: California
6,767 posts, read 3,852,680 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrat335 View Post
The present conflict between ukraine and Russia is a result of manipulating by all powers concerned, the well being of common people a far second to the wants of the elites. The outlooks of Russian and Ukrainian people ,their wants and needs hopes and fears are the same.

Your statement applies to a small minority of elites, not to people.
Your statement applies to Russia not Ukraine. What's happening in Ukraine is a result of the people exercising their will on their government. This has not happened in Russia
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Old 03-03-2018, 04:02 PM
 
9,511 posts, read 5,435,134 times
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In reference to the 100s of Russian soldiers killed in Syria. It was only about 10 or 20 MERCENARIES who died seemingly because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Speigle is not the only place I have found this.

Syria: The Truth About the Russian Deaths in US Airstrikes - SPIEGEL ONLINE
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Old 03-03-2018, 04:05 PM
 
9,511 posts, read 5,435,134 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DKM View Post
Your statement applies to Russia not Ukraine. What's happening in Ukraine is a result of the people exercising their will on their government. This has not happened in Russia
Tell that to all the Ukrainians fleeing the poverty in their country. The small number of people that took part in the coup in no way represents to will of the Ukraines people. Nobody believes your lies.
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Old 03-03-2018, 06:04 PM
DKM
 
Location: California
6,767 posts, read 3,852,680 times
Reputation: 6690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrat335 View Post
Tell that to all the Ukrainians fleeing the poverty in their country. The small number of people that took part in the coup in no way represents to will of the Ukraines people. Nobody believes your lies.
Was Russia's response to the coup the will of the Russian people? Is this what they wanted, stagnant economy and shunned by the free world? To be hated by a whole generation of Ukrainians?
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Old 03-03-2018, 06:16 PM
 
9,511 posts, read 5,435,134 times
Reputation: 9092
The DNR/LNR sure got enough Russan volunteers and vacationers to come to their aid when they rebelled didn't they? Considering the Ukie junta had to draft kids by threat of imprisonment to go to Donetsk and fight that should tell you a lot. Maybe the Kiev Junta should try some chit again. We'll see those Russians again.

Russia is not hated throughout the world, its economy is not stagnant and your average Ukrainian doesn't hate Russians. Many Russians live in the Ukraine. Do I really have to explain this to you? Again?

Nevermind, enjoy your koolaid!!!
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Old 03-04-2018, 02:56 PM
 
5,428 posts, read 3,492,366 times
Reputation: 5031
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrat335 View Post
Our recorded history is the greatest asset humanity has available to us. It's a record of the road behind us and every mistake and every achievement we've made. The geological record shows us instances of catastrophic events which changed the face of our world, sent entire phyla into the dark abyss of extinction and gave rise to others. Were history properly used and HEEDED we would not be on the path we are today, repeating the mistakes of the past. The minds of reptiles have no ability to reason using the tools available to them history being the most important in the bag. Reptile minds do not adapt, they keep doing the same thing over and over never changing the lane in which they walk. They disdain history, distort it to suit their purposes and do humanity a disservice.

How history is utilized makes it good or bad, just like a rifle. What is happening today is the result of human stupidity which leads nations to once again repeat mistakes made in the past.
History is useful as an educational tool. Using it to define geopolitics is naive at best. My problem with human outlook on history is that it's not universal. Each person decides what is valuable and what should be shunned, therefore it's veracity comes into question. The other issue I have with it, is that it's a slave to time. The importance of an event is usually determined by it's proximity to the present. Over time, it becomes relegated to irrelevance.

That's why I find the idea of Russians never forgetting the 90's to be nonsensical, as they were able to move past worse things like Napoleon's invasion or WW2. What I told erasure was that just because the US and Russia are at odds today, doesn't mean that the potential for friendship is dead.
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