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Improb lives in the south of italy, a region of Europe with little to none immigration problems. (A transition region where migrants pass on their way north)
Yeah it might be because i live in an area where immigrants are few and far in between and where they are often treated like dirt (it's an agricultural zone so most of the immigrants work as laborers in the field for long hours and really low salary; most of the time they are paid under the table as they are irregulars although there are also seasonal workers coming on a VISA).
On the flipside, i have been several times up North, i have been in Turin for every Christmas holidays and for a few summers as well. The neighbourhood where my relatives live has always been where immigrants almost make the majority.
At first, it was Southern Italians and now it is people coming from the whole world. It's through my time there that i understood that most immigrants are hardworking people who are trying to integrate. I did also notice that a higher percentage of North Africans immigrants don't integrate as well as others (especially women) but it's still a minority.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dooer
I invite you to visit Brussels, around Anderlecht or molenbeek my friend.... lf you want bring an attractive female friend of yours or some gay friends you might have, you'll see how accepting and open minded the locals in the area will be! And please don't take with you any jewelry or cash, as muggings are normal almost daily!
I know about Molenbeek, the problem is that it's became what it is because of our mistakes in the past. A phenomenon who's kinda similar to White Flight is what happened there, the problem was intensified by the increasing influence of countries like Saudi Arabia, Qatar (wahhabism and salafism) on religious matters. Anyway, Molenbeek is one of the few exceptions to the rule and even there it's a minority who creates problems
Muggings, pickpocketing, ecc. aren't a problem only in these neighbourhoods. Have you even been to Naples? Even though it's a wonderful city for the most part, there are neighbourhoods where pickpocketing of tourists was the norm until a few years ago and it wasn't organized crime who carried this but just low income Italian men or children. That's an extreme example but i could go on, this problem is in most low incomes neighbourhoods of large cities.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dooer
NO ONE is saying muslims are different, NO ONE is saying muslims should be banned.... but their immigration needs to be controlled for the sake of diversity!
A stampede of muslim refugees is not sustainable economically.
Refugees are one thing and immigration (especially illegal one, which i don't support) is another. Refugees are few and far in between and can be sustained economically (i still think more can be done to let this people become a part of the working force and that the benefits they receive are too high at times). As for immigrants, i don't think they are burden if they can show they are able to integrate (this is why i think regular immigrants should be required to learn local culture and language in their first year).
It's the bold bit what i really disagree with and what makes you a racist nonsensical man. Why do we have to preserve our ethnical diversity? I don't care if my my sons or grandsons are yellow, black, brown or blue but if they respect and are a part of the culture of their own country.
The same reason why you can't just go to the US or Saudi Arabia and pretend to live there: the benefit of the locals come first, simple as that.
Aside that 1 out 5 of the coming people are even Syrian, not even a refugee, your theory calls for just let everybody in?
I mean, you literally wrote: "to simply choose from where the immigrants will come from [...] as it's highly discriminatory".
Do you really think that a continent with the highest density of population, high unemployment, high social tensions almost everywhere and very specific almost mono-ethnic countries should host everybody?
The only people we should host in a limited number corresponding to the needs of the country (like Australia do and is one of the most prosperous country in the world) are: women and children fleeing from war or elderly, highly skilled or qualified people, politically persecuted personalities (for example, some of the journalists persecuted in Turkey).
Most people who our politically-sided mass media label as "refugees" are in fact young men with almost no skills, education or any will to integrate (and it is notorious how well integrated most Muslim are in Europe, I mean, it's not like the killers of November 13 were European citizens) who came to Europe just to seek welfare and benefits (otherwise, explain me why a "refugee", i.e. a man fleeing from war/poverty, would so stubbornly want to go Sweden and/or Germany).
If you really think that such a trend can continue and, worse of all, should continue for the sake of "multiculturalism"/growth (what growth?)/insert something else, then you are clearly out of touch with the reality of our life.
You also said "why not allow skilled people or refugees".
You centred the point: most of those supposed and never proved-to-be "refugees" are NOT like such.
Do you think that the average people opposing immigration is a rabid SS who wishes to exterminate Syrian kids and drink their blood while freeing Jerusalem?
I have no problem in hosting people who are actually refugees: women and children who flees from atrocities, minorities horribly persecuted (like Yazidis or many Kurds), personalities who would die in their regime (like Turkish journalists or bloggers).
Similarly, I have no problem in hosting and integrating highly skilled and/or qualified people.
Do you think that Le Pen would expel a Muslim highly qualified engineer who came here regularly and work, pay taxes and abide the law?
No, she wouldn't, 99% of people wouldn't.
Such massive immigration of people who have nothing in common with Europe, who want only to reap benefits and despise most of our basic concepts of life cannot go on and it won't end well: in history it never had and it will not this time either.
Everything you said just seems like common sense to me. Some European countries are sadly committing suicide by their open borders and liberal stance on immigration. It's no wonder conservatives who do not favor unlimited immigration are making great strides. If this unchecked immigration to the detriment of local people continues, you're going to see some ugly uprisings. Europeans aren't stupid. There's only so much the will put up with.
The same reason why you can't just go to the US or Saudi Arabia and pretend to live there: the benefit of the locals come first, simple as that.
Aside that 1 out 5 of the coming people are even Syrian, not even a refugee, your theory calls for just let everybody in?
I mean, you literally wrote: "to simply choose from where the immigrants will come from [...] as it's highly discriminatory".
Do you really think that a continent with the highest density of population, high unemployment, high social tensions almost everywhere and very specific almost mono-ethnic countries should host everybody?
The only people we should host in a limited number corresponding to the needs of the country (like Australia do and is one of the most prosperous country in the world) are: women and children fleeing from war or elderly, highly skilled or qualified people, politically persecuted personalities (for example, some of the journalists persecuted in Turkey). Most people who our politically-sided mass media label as "refugees" are in fact young men with almost no skills, education or any will to integrate (and it is notorious how well integrated most Muslim are in Europe, I mean, it's not like the killers of November 13 were European citizens) who came to Europe just to seek welfare and benefits (otherwise, explain me why a "refugee", i.e. a man fleeing from war/poverty, would so stubbornly want to go Sweden and/or Germany).
If you really think that such a trend can continue and, worse of all, should continue for the sake of "multiculturalism"/growth (what growth?)/insert something else, then you are clearly out of touch with the reality of our life.
You also said "why not allow skilled people or refugees".
You centred the point: most of those supposed and never proved-to-be "refugees" are NOT like such.
Do you think that the average people opposing immigration is a rabid SS who wishes to exterminate Syrian kids and drink their blood while freeing Jerusalem?
I have no problem in hosting people who are actually refugees: women and children who flees from atrocities, minorities horribly persecuted (like Yazidis or many Kurds), personalities who would die in their regime (like Turkish journalists or bloggers).
Similarly, I have no problem in hosting and integrating highly skilled and/or qualified people.
Do you think that Le Pen would expel a Muslim highly qualified engineer who came here regularly and work, pay taxes and abide the law?
No, she wouldn't, 99% of people wouldn't.
Such massive immigration of people who have nothing in common with Europe, who want only to reap benefits and despise most of our basic concepts of life cannot go on and it won't end well: in history it never had and it will not this time either.
My theory doesn't call to let everyone in. I myself said several times that illegal immigrants shouldn't be welcomed (although the issue is far more complicated than that, we must stop human trafficking before) but that legal ones and refugees should (i think they should be required to learn and to show to have learned enough of the local language and culture after one year in their new country).
I can't explain the bolded part easily. There are several people fleeing from wars, alongside them there are also illegal immigrants of course. The people who are fleeing to European is the middle-upper classes of these countries, these are people who could afford to gather enough to make the trip through illegal organizations.
The working and low classes are mostly in neighbouring countries such as Lebanon and Jordan where they live in ****ty conditions and barely even have enough food, electicity or running water. Lebanon and Jordan simply don't receive and don't have enough resources to host this people (giving a country of 4 million the task of hosting 1,1 million of refugees is madness) so the wealthiest ones of them have no choice but to try to find their luck elsewhere
Most of those people don't want our benefits, they may take advantage of them while they are here but they are trying to work their asses to guarantee their sons and themselves a better future. They are no different to the Italian immigrants who went to the USA, to Germany, ecc. until a few decades ago.
There are several skilled ones as well as several refugees coming, more than you actually think. The vast bulk is made up by illegal immigrants though and we must be able to tell one from each other and that isn't an easy process, which is why refugee centers and camps in Europe are overcrowded.
If the West stopped excessive intervention in those countries, immigration would come to a halt, without the Syrian War or the Lybian Civil one (the rise of immigrants can be easily explained by these two events) before, ecc. the issue would be a secondary one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by marino760
Everything you said just seems like common sense to me. Some European countries are sadly committing suicide by their open borders and liberal stance on immigration. It's no wonder conservatives who do not favor unlimited immigration are making great strides. If this unchecked immigration to the detriment of local people continues, you're going to see some ugly uprisings. Europeans aren't stupid. There's only so much the will put up with.
Are we leaving our borders open though? That's only between countries who adhere to the Schengen treaty. The border between Greece and Turkey isn't open but the number of immigrants is so high that a few are going to pass through anyway. The country on the Southern borders such as Greece, Spain and Italy can't have all the burden of preventing illegal immigration all on themselves, there's only so much they can do.
We won't put a problem to this with further isolation but we must find a common solution. The problem is that Central and Eastern European countries oppose any solution because they think only of themselves and aren't affected by the migratory wave
It's the bold bit what i really disagree with and what makes you a racist nonsensical man. Why do we have to preserve our ethnical diversity? I don't care if my my sons or grandsons are yellow, black, brown or blue but if they respect and are a part of the culture of their own country.
Once again assuming! It's hilarious you find in the world "Diversity" racism!
When I say Muslim immigration should be controlled for the sake of diversity. I mean that more immigration from other parts of the world should be promoted to balance demographics out.
We can't let the entire middle East and north Africa empty its entire population here, while pretty much closing doors to just about everyone else!
We need cultural enrichment from all over the world, NOT A TAKE OVER BY THE MIDDLE EAST!
This kind of thing has always happened, (holocaust), the thing is the VAST majority of people in Europe are managing to live together side by side in greater harmony than ever before, the 'far right' and ISIS are still tiny minorities that get 99% of religious headlines. There is a program on TV right now where British TV presenter Adrian Chiles has travelled to the Mediterranean in search of the 'silent minority' of religious people to see what they think of 'other' religions and to see if they think they get along OK. I am not religious but I saw the first episode and found it quite interesting.
There is no need to downplay and pretend everything is rainbows and unicorns mate! Issues don't go away just because you close your eyes and focus exclusively on the good!
There is no need to downplay and pretend everything is rainbows and unicorns mate! Issues don't go away just because you close your eyes and focus exclusively on the good!
I don't believe I said everything was 'rainbows and unicorns'? I don't believe I said that issues are going to go away either, and I am certainly not 'closing my eyes' to all that is wrong, I was simply pointing out that a VAST majority of people are not racist, the issues with ISIS aren't specifically racial prejudices, more religious prejudices. I dislike most religions, its religion that causes a lot of the worlds problems, I particularly dislike devout religious people, if somebody thinks that there is a god that insists they 'dress a certain way' or 'pray a certain way' or 'live a certain way' or eat 'certain foods' then that's their problem, if they want to fast, beat themselves or live their lives on their knees in prayer its their lookout, if however somebody tries to force their ridiculous religious views or even more ridiculous religious practices on 'others' then that is where I get angry. If I had my way I would ban ALL religion.
Why are you even talking about race? I read that you're married with a black woman... Is that the reason you're so uptight with this topic?
You're married to a black woman, GOOD FOR YOU!! Many black women are beautiful!!! Who the heck is talking about black people from the UK or any European minority for that matter?
Why are you even talking about race? I read that you're married with a black woman... Is that the reason you're so uptight with this topic?
You're married to a black woman, GOOD FOR YOU!! Many black women are beautiful!!! Who the heck is talking about black people from the UK or any European minority for that matter?
15 caught so far, ALL OF THEM REFUGEES 14 from Syria, one from Afghanistan!!!
Getting harder and harder to excuse the whole refugee deal!
Is this directed at me? I am not 'uptight' I am simply saying that most people are not more racist now than before (which was the question I originally responded to), that doesn't mean to say that there are NO racist people in Europe (or anywhere for that fact). I do understand what you are talking about, you are talking about the refugee crisis in Europe in 2015, believing you should have tighter border controls doesn't necessarily make you a 'racist'. For your information I too believe the whole thing has been mishandled terribly, my rant on religion was exactly that - a rant on religion, what any of this has to do with my family I don't know so I am not sure why you mentioned it??
Is this directed at me? I am not 'uptight' I am simply saying that most people are not more racist now than before (which was the question I originally responded to), that doesn't mean to say that there are NO racist people in Europe (or anywhere for that fact). I do understand what you are talking about, you are talking about the refugee crisis in Europe in 2015, believing you should have tighter border controls doesn't necessarily make you a 'racist'. For your information I too believe the whole thing has been mishandled terribly, my rant on religion was exactly that - a rant on religion, what any of this has to do with my family I don't know so I am not sure why you mentioned it??
Because you were a bit tense about my comments regarding muslims being given automatic access into Europe!
I infer perhaps you thought I was a racist who probably dumped people of different complexions into the same category!
I had a four year relationship black man from Leeds. (I am gay), and I am 100% against the open door policy we have. OUR PRIORITY IS THE PEOPLE IN EUROPE, not refugees!
Because you were a bit tense about my comments regarding muslims being given automatic access into Europe!
I infer perhaps you thought I was a racist who probably dumped people of different complexions into the same category!
I had a four year relationship black man from Leeds. (I am gay), and I am 100% against the open door policy we have. OUR PRIORITY IS THE PEOPLE IN EUROPE, not refugees!
Sorry no, I am sorry if my posts gave that impression, this is not the impression I wanted to give, its probably my bad English! I was just thinking that there have been racial problems in the past as well as the present so I thought perhaps things are only 'perceived' to be worse now. I certainly don't want you to think that I am sitting here thinking you are racist just because of your comments concerning the mess that the refugee crisis has become - in fact I agree with what you have said anyway! People in Europe 9(Europeans) can and do get along in the main whatever their colour, religion or sexual standing but just letting hundreds of thousands of people in the way they have (particularly if they are devout religious people with extreme religious views) is madness and will undoubtedly cause problems in the continent. Like you I don't want this 'open door policy either!'
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but if they respect and are a part of the culture of their own country.
