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No, the NYC and Philly accents don't overlap. One is Midland, the other is Northern.
Yes, they absolutely overlap. There is a very large geographic area in Jersey and PA where both accents are heavily intermingled (which makes perfect sense because these areas are mostly populated by former New Yorkers and Philadelphians). Examples would be Burglington, Atlantic, Mercer Counties in NJ, and basically anywhere in NE PA (everything from Allentown to Reading to Scranton).
I would say Missouri based on the general rural-ness of the state. Kansas City and St. Louis also feel a lot closer to big southern cities such as, say Atlanta or Dallas, than does Baltimore or the DC suburbs. While the rural, backwoods parts of both states feel similarly "Southern", I just get the inpression that more of Missouri is like that than Maryland.
Brooklyn and the Bronx don't have the exact same accent. Long Island has different accents. There are like a dozen different accents in London alone.
The fact is that Philly and Baltimore are classified as having the same general accent, even if they aren't exactly the same, which would be really weird. If the claim is that Baltimore's accent is Southern, then it has to be true that the Philly/S. Jersey accent is Southern as well.
Show me who here claimed the Baltimore accent is Southern. You really live grasping at straws, don't you??
Yes, they absolutely overlap. There is a very large geographic area in Jersey and PA where both accents are heavily intermingled (which makes perfect sense because these areas are mostly populated by former New Yorkers and Philadelphians). Examples would be Burglington, Atlantic, Mercer Counties in NJ, and basically anywhere in NE PA (everything from Allentown to Reading to Scranton).
So, you mention Scranton and Allentown, cities where Northern Cities Vowel Shift has permeated somewhat (A-town) or completely (Scranton)? By that token, Baltimore has a Chicago accent now. Jeez, people. If anything, this shows the Midland Atlantic region is a HUUUUUUGE transition area.
Allentown and Scranton are not in the Philly metro. It's not as if Philly metro ends and NYC metro begins. The overlap happens in the area between those metros. That area then is a mix of MIDLAND (not Southern) and Northern speech patterns. So, saying that because Baltimore's Midland speech has more Southern influences due to the Tidewater region has NO effect on the North Jersey area whatsoever. That's the thing about transitional areas in that one will have more elements of what is close to it. It makes sense that Tidewater would influence Baltimore but not North Jersey.
Baltimore and most of Jersey are in the Midland region. But Baltimore is absolutely a Southern influenced Midland accent whereas North Jersey is a Northern influenced Midland accent. See how that works? NYC influences North Jersey, not the Tidewater region. Likewise, NYC doesn't influence Baltimore if by the time the influences reaches Philly, most of the carryover is few and far between. Ask any Philadelphian if their accent is very much like New York and you will get some angry reactions. Philly is its own thing. NYC linguistics may have permeated the area some, but not enough to where you'd confuse one for the other
Now, since we can agree that NYC linguistics have made their way slightly to Philly, where are they showing up in Baltimore?
Common NYC language features vs. Baltimore features:
1. No Mary-merry-marry merger vs. Merger of at least two of those words (this carries over to many vowels before R). Baltimore shares the same Coastal Southern system of merging Mary with merry but not with marry.
2. Backed pronunciations of long O and U vs. Fronted pronunciations of long O and U
3. Diphthongized aw sounds vs. Monophthongized Received Pronunciation (caught in NYC sounds like "caw-uht" and in Baltimore it sounds like "caught" in Standard English). Same with other aw sounds like talk, coffee, bought, dog, loss, etc.
3. Absence of glide deletion vs. Strong usage (long I in NYC is usually pronounced in General American or with some Canadian Raising whereas in Baltimore it can sound like "ah", "au", and ALSO with Canadian Raising that follows the same system as Chesapeake Bay English).
4. Short A tensing vs Short A lax vowels (in NYC, short a is tense before m, n, f, s, sh, th, b, d, dg, and g whereas in Baltimore it's tense only before m, n, f, s, and th). The systems here though DO have the similarities of using a short a vowel on the first syllable of words not directly derived from a tense vowel. Compare mad with Maddox, bad with Badger, Mass with Massachusetts, etc. This is one thing that NYC and Baltimore do have in common. Similar systems are heard in Philly (more similar to Baltimore) and Cincy (more similar to New York). New Orleans also has a system similar to NYC and Cincy.
4. Non-rhotic vs. Rhotic (self explanatory). One could argue that Baltimore is neither Northeastern nor Southerneastern based on this alone.
5. Short o before intervocalic R is actually identical here. Words like Florida, orange, historical, horrible, etc are pronounced with the Vowel used in tomorrow and sorry instead of the Vowel used in words like for and or. However, this is common in the South, too. Pretty much all of the Eastern seaboard of the United States uses this system whether you're in New York or Charleston.
So, what are the similarities? They do exist. But whatever they carry over aren't unique to NYC alone. An argument can be made that it is the short-a split system that really unites the Mid-Atlantic region with New York (and an isolated Midwest and Southern city). Other than that, I've not heard of many other similarities between NYC and Baltimore speech. This doesn't make Baltimore a Southern city with a Southern accent. But this all-or-nothing mentality is honestly kind of odd. You know an accent doesn't have to fall into Northern or Southern categories, right?
Brooklyn and the Bronx don't have the exact same accent. Long Island has different accents. There are like a dozen different accents in London alone.
The fact is that Philly and Baltimore are classified as having the same general accent, even if they aren't exactly the same, which would be really weird. If the claim is that Baltimore's accent is Southern, then it has to be true that the Philly/S. Jersey accent is Southern as well.
BK and the Bronx are neighbors. Baltimore and Philadelphia are separated by ONE HUNDRED MILES, before the interstate was finished it took three hours to get from one city to the other. The two situations are not analogous.
Baltimore and Philly (white people) share literally 3 things with each other.
"The Mid-Atlantic states do not share a common dialect"
"New Jersey is divided between the Northern and the Midland types. North Jersey speech is strongly influenced by the New York metropolitan area which spills into it. Likewise, South Jersey speech has a strong Philadelphia element, both because of the metropolitan expansion and because so many Philadelphians spend their summers at the shore resorts."
"Maryland, like Delaware, has Midland speech along its northern border, the chief distinction being that the Midland dialects in Maryland are of the central Pennsylvania type rather than the Delaware Valley type. Further south are two distinct types of Southern dialects divided by the Chesapeake Bay: the Delmarva variety, on the Eastern Shore, and the Virginia Piedmont type from Baltimore south on the western shore." The Mid-Atlantic Dialects
In fact, the grouping together of Baltimore and Philly is only done by Labov and by people who base their maps off of Labov. This source does not group then with each other. Among linguists it is agreed that Philadelphia has New York (northern) elements, and that New York is still classified as a "northern" accent.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ecNZnjT6kLo
This comment by 70sleftover:
"Hate to point this out, but some of her dialect is not classic Phila. area speech. It sounds sometimes strained to fit the typical pattern that once ruled the Delaware Valley. We pronounce the word AND without that jarring ai-ind I hear on this clip. And we locals would say HAHRrible for horrible - certainly not HOR (as in "*****")-ible anywhere in most of Pa., all of NJ, or in Delaware. No way."
Someone said this for the Baltimore accent in the video's comments: "The Baltimore accent is more Southern influenced than Philly. It's almost a fully Southern dialect except they have the same weird "i" sounds that you hear in Philly. The way "like" is pronounced sounds more similar to "luik" instead of "lahk" which is more Southern."
I would say Missouri based on the general rural-ness of the state. Kansas City and St. Louis also feel a lot closer to big southern cities such as, say Atlanta or Dallas, than does Baltimore or the DC suburbs. While the rural, backwoods parts of both states feel similarly "Southern", I just get the inpression that more of Missouri is like that than Maryland.
The backwoods portions of the states aren't Southern though. Just Southern influences.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ecNZnjT6kLo
This comment by 70sleftover:
"Hate to point this out, but some of her dialect is not classic Phila. area speech. It sounds sometimes strained to fit the typical pattern that once ruled the Delaware Valley. We pronounce the word AND without that jarring ai-ind I hear on this clip. And we locals would say HAHRrible for horrible - certainly not HOR (as in "*****")-ible anywhere in most of Pa., all of NJ, or in Delaware. No way."
Someone said this for the Baltimore accent in the video's comments: "The Baltimore accent is more Southern influenced than Philly. It's almost a fully Southern dialect except they have the same weird "i" sounds that you hear in Philly. The way "like" is pronounced sounds more similar to "luik" instead of "lahk" which is more Southern."
The Baltimore accent isn't anywhere close to being fully Southern. It's in the same accent family as Philly and much more similar to that city in practically every respect than to any Southern city.
The Baltimore accent isn't anywhere close to being fully Southern. It's in the same accent family as Philly and much more similar to that city in practically every respect than to any Southern city.
Somebody else said that, just proving that we're not crazy
So you're ignoring what I'm saying. Do the accents sound the same?
You seem to be under the impression that people are making Baltimore and Philly out to be twins.
Do we have ethnic enclaves. Yes, we have Jews, Caribbean, Russian, Italian, Greek, and Hispanic, and at one point 2 Chinatowns.
Climate: NYC, Philly, Baltimore, DC are practically identical.
Black Presence: Baltimore was under 20% black before white before the great migration, and not the majority until white flight, not much relevancy in that topic. That would make Detroit the most southern major city in the country of going by that standard.
Yes, Baltimore has one of the largest Jewish populations in the country. Italian, middle of the pack.
With that being said, Baltimore is Baltimore. Stop comparing it to Philly, DC or any other city. I know you're infatuated with Baltimore's accent, coming up with ways that it's southern, but it isn't southern , it's not northern either.
So, in 1900 before the great migration Philadelphia's black population was 63,000 or about 5%. Quite different from a little less than one fifth.
Before white fight Baltimore's black population was 24% (1950). Remember that Baltimore missed out on the first Great Migration for the most part.
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