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Why are you getting so bent out of shape? I was simply showing you examples of civil rights events and racial hostility in Chicago. Who said anything about Jim Crow or which area did Blacks have it the worst? It's a stupid argument anyway. That's like saying "The racist whites in the North where a lot less racist then the Whites in the South?" Blacks caught hell where ever they went and faced many different variations of segregation!
Jim Crow was a social order. It wasn't just racism. You clearly fail to appreciate the difference between the two.
You don't even know the facts. You said that "the free Blacks says a lot about the culture of the state." What does it say about the culture? That the slave masters there were liberals? Gimme a break. Many farmers had lousy harvests and had no economic incentive to keep slaves. Others kept making profit and held onto their slaves. If the culture was so different, then the state should have abolished slavery and voted for Lincoln. So why didn't it?
To say that Maryland was simply a "border" state and not a southern state goes against decades of academic literature. But since we're pulling stuff out of our butt, why not throw Philadelphia into the South too?
Because Philly it was never a border city.
Who has ever been to Philly and thought it was ever Southern through out its history of existence?
But the sources I provided clearly state Pennsylvania was a border state. What do you have to contradict that? If Maryland was a southern state (which it unquestionably was), then Pennsylvania "bordered" the South. Pretty logical.
What you're trying to do is rewrite history and say, "No, Baltimore was never a true southern city," though you have plenty of sources that explicitly state it was. You never even addressed the fact that Maryland was a founding member of both the Southern Legislative Conference and the Southern Governors Association, which is a clear indication of its leanings. I mean, I'm not sure what excuse you'll come up with for that, but I'm sure it will be laughable (it's a difficult fact to address, so I'll forgive you if you take a pass).
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwillyfromphilly
Who has ever been to Philly and thought it was ever Southern through out its history of existence?
Hey, if you can pull "facts" out of your ass and rewrite history, then so can I.
Jim Crow was a social order. It wasn't just racism. You clearly fail to appreciate the difference between the two.
The purpose for creating that social order was to keep the racial groups separate. It was the Southern version. In the North, it was a lot more subtle when it came to their social order as they focus more on residential and economic segregation. White flight and economic flight from the northern cities was a great example of that and many Blacks could not move to many those suburban communities. If they did move there, they were basically guaranteed to face hostility from the social order that was already established in the North. That's why I said it's stupid to argue which area did Blacks have it better because they basically faced some sort of oppression anywhere they went. They were going through similar issues, just in different ways that's all.
But the sources I provided clearly state Pennsylvania was a border state. What do you have to contradict that? If Maryland was a southern state (which it unquestionably was), then Pennsylvania "bordered" the South. Pretty logical.
What you're trying to do is rewrite history and say, "No, Baltimore was never a true southern city," though you have plenty of sources that explicitly state it was. You never even addressed the fact that Maryland was a founding member of both the Southern Legislative Conference and the Southern Governors Association, which is a clear indication of its leanings. I mean, I'm not sure what excuse you'll come up with for that, but I'm sure it will be laughable (it's a difficult fact to address, so I'll forgive you if you take a pass).
Hey, if you can pull "facts" out of your ass and rewrite history, then so can I.
Maryland being a founding member of both the Southern Legislative Conference and the Southern Governors Association doesn't disprove it from being a border state just like Maryland not joining the confederacy doesn't disprove it from being a border state.
The purpose for creating that social order was to keep the racial groups separate. It was the Southern version. In the North, it was a lot more subtle when it came to their social order as they focus more on residential and economic segregation. White flight and economic flight from the northern cities was a great example of that and many Blacks could not move to many those suburban communities. If they did move their, they were basically guaranteed to face hostility from the social order that was already established in the North.
Yes, and that was one of the key differences between the North and the South. That and a strong antagonism between WASPs and Catholics in the Northeast during the post-war era. The divisions in the Northeast, for the most part, were ethnic as well as racial. That's a really big part of the social fabric of the Northeast whether you're talking about Philly, Buffalo or New Haven.
Quote:
Philadelphia’s unions — particularly the building trade unions — would outlast those elsewhere, because the city had a core stronger, even, than steel: It had the Irish. It had the Italians. It had the Polish. That is, it had neighborhoods.
“Sheet-metal workers, carpenters, masons, electricians. Great strength,†says Walter Licht, the Annenberg professor of history at the University of Pennsylvania. “That strength came from ethnic kinship.â€
Washington, DC really had none of that at all. Not even faint traces of it. Baltimore had some of it, but far, far less of it than northeastern cities (to put it in numbers, White Catholics and Jews make up about 34% of the Philly MSA and about 15% in Baltimore) and then much more of the southern Jim Crow social order going on than any northern city.
When I look at Boston, NYC and Philly (or even Pittsburgh, Syracuse or Rochester), that's sort of the one common thread that runs among them all.
Maryland being a founding member of both the Southern Legislative Conference and the Southern Governors Association doesn't disprove it from being a border state just like Maryland not joining the confederacy doesn't disprove it from being a border state.
Just like Pennsylvania being in the Northeast doesn't "disprove it from being a border state."
Pennsylvania was a border state and it was solidly northern. Why couldn't Maryland be a border state and solidly southern?
And yes, history is important because these cities wouldn't be what they are today without it. If you spend all of your day eating at Estadio, Ted's Bulletin, and other new swanky restaurants along 14th Street (which are basically brand new anyway), then you won't see that. But if you are able to pull yourself away from Amusement World for just a moment and explore every nook and corner of the region, then you might reach a different conclusion.
I don't hang out at swanky places in Baltimore (assuming that's what these places are). You and I have and different life experiences of course. Maybe if I had yours I would see things differently. But who knows - maybe not. Still, I kinda wonder if you had any of the following experiences, if you too might see things differently:
- Growing up in the 60s with 10 sets of aunts and uncles (not to mention extended family) concentrated around Baltimore and the Eastern Shore, with one set of grands in Baltimore and the other in Caroline County
- Growing up during that same period with seemingly dozens of 1st, 2nd and even 3rd cousins and spending lots of happy days playing "down the oeh'shun" with them
- Having my aunts cook Polish and Italian dishes for the family
- Learning in history class in a DE school located a mere 7 miles form the MD line that "we" won the Civil War
- Living in Cecil County for about 18 months
- Living in Virginia for 2 and half years in the late 70s with locals joking that I'm a Yankee
- While in VA, being called an N-lover for the first and only time in my life when I called out a fellow student from rural Virginia in front of others on the use of that word
- Also while in Virginia, eating grits for the first time (and liking them) and red eye gravy for the first time (and not liking it)
- Living in Houston for 26 years (which is very southern in my view) during which time I:
1) Was called a Yankee there, as well! (lol)
2) Spent lots of time in DC and Balto, and noticed lots of northeastern characteristics of each place when compared to the south
3) Routinely visited family - another point of calibration
I see qualities of both north and south in MD, but if forced to choose, I find more northern qualities in MD than southern. These are just some of the reasons why I hold the views I do. Polls you have provided links to show that I am not the only one who sees the state as more northern in character. No surprise to me. Whether it's the majority view, the minority view or Bajan's view, it makes no difference to me. It's my view. You can accept and understand that or be mystified by it, I guess.
Last edited by Pine to Vine; 08-07-2014 at 04:04 PM..
Reason: ooops - changed "CD" to "DC"
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