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Considering things like smoking bans and other laws that usually get labeled as "nanny state" laws come from democrats and libertarians tend to view such laws as invasive on there civil liberties it makes sense they don't support Democrats. That and the progressive wing of the democratic party is almost the polar opposite of libertarians I can see why they default vote for Republicans.
I dunno. I think things like limitations on abortion, marriage equality, and the death penalty would be far more oppressive in a libertarian mindset than if you could smoke in a bar.
I'll just respond that you're focusing only on industry and geographical differences. I said there are some distinct differences, but you're neglecting to consider any similarities, such as very strong colonial/revolutionary history and links (see Boston and Philadelphia), distinct ethnic European heritage (both states contain strong Italian, Irish and Jewish communities, among others), strong local government (they're both commonwealths, after all), distinct town centers, strong history of open space/parkland preservation, "mill towns" (despite the fact that Massachusetts didn't produce steel or oil, it has a plethora of mill towns that are very reminiscent of post industrial towns in Pennsylvania). In terms of modern day industry, both are significant life sciences and higher education hubs.
As far as strong colonial history goes all the original 13 colonies share that. Nothing special linking PA with Massachusetts compared to the other colonies. As far as Ancestry goes PA is extremely German. In fact it was seriously questioned whether or not German would become the common language spoken throughout PA and something ironically Ben Franklin was a little worried about since he hated Germans. Pennsylvania's is much more similar to the Midwest in terms of ancestry than Massachusetts or the rest of New England.
Politically PA is a swing state and has more in common with Ohio then it does with any of it's other neighbors in this regard. Culturally PA is the most non northeastern state. We have more in common with other states in different regions of the country ie Virginia which is part of the south an Ohio which is part of the Midwest then we do with any New England state. Geographically PA is more similar to West Virginia since 3/4 of the state is covered by the Appalachian Mountains.
As far as the whole commonwealth thing goes Virginia and Kentucky are both commonwealths as well and again PA has a lot more in common with Virginia then it does with Massachusetts. Mill towns are common on the east coast overall and not something specific to PA and Massachusetts only. Also Massachusetts isn't a rustbelt state like PA is.
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I also have no idea what you're talking about in terms of Pennsylvanians not visiting New England, either, as I constantly hear of people visiting places like Cape Cod, Maine and Vermont (and very often see PA plates when I'm up there). Just because you may not visit or have connections doesn't mean others don't.
I'll repeat myself again and state unless you have family that lives in New England or have to travel there due to work Pennsylvanians don't really go to New England otherwise. Those people who you see up there with PA tags are falling into those two categories I just mentioned. You don't get people with no ties to New England deciding to vacation in Cape Cod. They'll go Ocean City Maryland, Virginia Beach, or somewhere else to the south.
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Politically, also, I think you're exaggerating quite a bit. Despite reputation, I actually think the general populace of New England, Massachusetts included, is fairly libertarian. The notion that there's still a super strong puritan influence there really has not been my experience whatsoever (let's also not forget that Pennsylvania has not exactly been unfamiliar with 'nanny state' laws--state liquor stores being a prime example of that).
PA tends to be filled with moderate republicans and blue dog democrats. Libertarian, Progressive, and Evangelical politics tend not to go over very well in the state. PA is not very moralistic at all compared to how Massachusetts is. State liquor stores are still around do to union backing. Also PA is not where Prohibition started because PA historically has not tried to dictate to other states how they should behave. Which is the exact opposite of Massachusetts whose leaders have historically tried to tell other people how they should live there lives like they did with prohibition in the first place.
I dunno. I think things like limitations on abortion, marriage equality, and the death penalty would be far more oppressive in a libertarian mindset than if you could smoke in a bar.
When you add in the economic side of the argument Progressives and Libertarians become polar opposites. To support Libertarian economic plan is to be against a Progressive economic plan and vice versa for the most part. Also Libertarians are pretty evenly split on abortion. That is not cut and dry issue to them like it is to Christian Conservatives or Progressive Democrats.
PA tends to be filled with moderate republicans and blue dog democrats. Libertarian, Progressive, and Evangelical politics tend not to go over very well in the state. PA is not very moralistic at all compared to how Massachusetts is. State liquor stores are still around do to union backing. Also PA is not where Prohibition started because PA historically has not tried to dictate to other states how they should behave. Which is the exact opposite of Massachusetts whose leaders have historically tried to tell other people how they should live there lives like they did with prohibition in the first place.
Prohibition wasn't as popular in New England as it was in the Midwest or South.
As far as the whole commonwealth thing goes Virginia and Kentucky are both commonwealths as well and again PA has a lot more in common with Virginia then it does with Massachusetts. Mill towns are common on the east coast overall and not something specific to PA and Massachusetts only. Also Massachusetts isn't a rustbelt state like PA is.
Pennsylvania's is much more similar to the Midwest in terms of ancestry than Massachusetts or the rest of New England.
Once again, yes, it's different from the New England, but it certainly doesn't share more commonalities with the Midwest. There is a plurality of Germans, but the much larger Italian, Irish, Scots-Irish and Eastern European population in Pennsylvania provides it with a unique mixture of ethnicities.
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Originally Posted by cwa1984
Politically PA is a swing state and has more in common with Ohio then it does with any of it's other neighbors in this regard. Culturally PA is the most non northeastern state. We have more in common with other states in different regions of the country ie Virginia which is part of the south an Ohio which is part of the Midwest then we do with any New England state. Geographically PA is more similar to West Virginia since 3/4 of the state is covered by the Appalachian Mountains.
You keep saying this, but I honestly just don't see it. Ohio, for one, was not one of the original 13 colonies, and Virginia clearly has a very different history, being part of the Confederacy. Not to mention, no Northeastern state is 100% the same as another.
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Originally Posted by cwa1984
As far as the whole commonwealth thing goes Virginia and Kentucky are both commonwealths as well and again PA has a lot more in common with Virginia then it does with Massachusetts. Mill towns are common on the east coast overall and not something specific to PA and Massachusetts only. Also Massachusetts isn't a rustbelt state like PA is.
You've obviously never been to Lowell or New Bedford (as examples). Contrary to popular perception, there is a strong "Rust Belt" element in New England.
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Originally Posted by cwa1984
I'll repeat myself again and state unless you have family that lives in New England or have to travel there due to work Pennsylvanians don't really go to New England otherwise. Those people who you see up there with PA tags are falling into those two categories I just mentioned. You don't get people with no ties to New England deciding to vacation in Cape Cod. They'll go Ocean City Maryland, Virginia Beach, or somewhere else to the south.
I don't know why you're debating this point so much. The fact that Pennsylvania doesn't have its own ocean beaches mean that people go up and down the coast, depending on the time of year (obviously the Southern coast is more appealing during winter and the Northern coast more appealing during summer). I promise that you'll find Pennsylvanians going to New England, regardless of "connections." I agree that most common destinations for beaches are NJ, MD and DE, but, again, with such a large state population adjacent to various beach states, people will want to go to different places.
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Originally Posted by cwa1984
PA tends to be filled with moderate republicans and blue dog democrats. Libertarian, Progressive, and Evangelical politics tend not to go over very well in the state. PA is not very moralistic at all compared to how Massachusetts is. State liquor stores are still around do to union backing. Also PA is not where Prohibition started because PA historically has not tried to dictate to other states how they should behave. Which is the exact opposite of Massachusetts whose leaders have historically tried to tell other people how they should live there lives like they did with prohibition in the first place.
I agree with your political take historically, but the politics are also changing in Pennsylvania (for one, Gov. Wolf is arguably the most progressive Democrat elected in PA history). Much like other states, the politics have become a bit more polarized in PA.
I don't understand, also, where you're getting this idea that Massachusetts has told other states what "how they should live their lives" vis-a-vis prohibition. Again, the impetus for the liquor laws and other "blue laws" in Pennsylvania was most definitely because of a "moralistic" approach: http://old.post-gazette.com/regionst...218sunday5.asp
As far as strong colonial history goes all the original 13 colonies share that. Nothing special linking PA with Massachusetts compared to the other colonies. As far as Ancestry goes PA is extremely German. In fact it was seriously questioned whether or not German would become the common language spoken throughout PA and something ironically Ben Franklin was a little worried about since he hated Germans. Pennsylvania's is much more similar to the Midwest in terms of ancestry than Massachusetts or the rest of New England.
Politically PA is a swing state and has more in common with Ohio then it does with any of it's other neighbors in this regard. Culturally PA is the most non northeastern state. We have more in common with other states in different regions of the country ie Virginia which is part of the south an Ohio which is part of the Midwest then we do with any New England state. Geographically PA is more similar to West Virginia since 3/4 of the state is covered by the Appalachian Mountains.
I'll repeat myself again and state unless you have family that lives in New England or have to travel there due to work Pennsylvanians don't really go to New England otherwise. Those people who you see up there with PA tags are falling into those two categories I just mentioned. You don't get people with no ties to New England deciding to vacation in Cape Cod. They'll go Ocean City Maryland, Virginia Beach, or somewhere else to the South.
I agree with your second paragraph. A good example of this is that Pennsylvania and Ohio have embraced fracking but New York and Vermont have declined it.
The problem is your third paragraph. You leave yourself no wiggle room. "Unless you have family that lives in New England or travel there due to work Pennsylvanians don't really go to New England otherwise".
How do you know that? Pennsylvania has over 12 million people and you think no one travels to New England unless they know someone or work there? No one from PA vacations in the Berkshires, skies in Vermont, travels along the Maine coast? I find that incredibly hard to believe.
I find only two categories - the cities that are mostly liberal with cosmopolitan culture and then the villages and small towns with conservative religious people..
Most of the cities have the same vibe no matter where they are located like Chicago in Midwest to Atlanta in the South to Seattle in the West. And the small towns and the villages have the same vibe no matter where they are like in the North East to Mid West to the South to the West..
People tend to view places through the stereotypical lens and try to find differences otherwise most of the cities are very similar and most of the small towns and villages are basically the same like most of the small towns have a main street in the middle of the town and a famous diner that everyone goes too..
Once again, yes, it's different from the New England, but it certainly doesn't share more commonalities with the Midwest. There is a plurality of Germans, but the much larger Italian, Irish, Scots-Irish and Eastern European population in Pennsylvania provides it with a unique mixture of ethnicities.
I'm calling straight bs on this. The Midwest was very heavily influenced by PA since that is where the settlers to the Midwest primarily came from initially. So it makes sense PA ancestry wise is a much closer to the Midwest then New England which is a very isolated region of the country. There are more people in PA with German ancestry then there is with Irish, Italian, Scottish, and Scottish Irish ancestry combined. You really need to look up the demographics of PA because you seem to think they are similar to the North east when they are not.
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You keep saying this, but I honestly just don't see it. Ohio, for one, was not one of the original 13 colonies, and Virginia clearly has a very different history, being part of the Confederacy. Not to mention, no Northeastern state is 100% the same as another.
The reason your not seeing this is probably because your from New England. If you actually bothered to look at the history of PA we have more in common with a state like Ohio since Ohio was initially settleed by Pennsylvanians. The same goes for most of Appalachia and even large chunks of Virginia. As far as the Norstheast not being the same or even close I'm in absolute agreement there. That is why I hate the term Northeastern since it's absolutely meaningless.
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You've obviously never been to Lowell or New Bedford (as examples). Contrary to popular perception, there is a strong "Rust Belt" element in New England.
If been to Massachusetts before and it's not nearly the same as it is throughout Pennsylvania in regards to close down factories. Massachusetts is pretty much never considered part of the Rust Belt. The only time in my entire life it's ever been referred to as part of the rust belt is on city data.
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I don't know why you're debating this point so much. The fact that Pennsylvania doesn't have its own ocean beaches mean that people go up and down the coast, depending on the time of year (obviously the Southern coast is more appealing during winter and the Northern coast more appealing during summer). I promise that you'll find Pennsylvanians going to New England, regardless of "connections." I'll admit the most common destinations for beaches are NJ, MD and DE, but, again, with such a large state population adjacent to various beach states, people will want to go to different places.
Pennsylvanians go south when they want to go to the Ocean unless they have family up in New England they don't go north to the ocean to do so. Hell unless your from Philly or eastern PA (Allentown, Scranton, etc) you don't even go to Jersey to go to the shore...and not everyone from Philly or even Eastern PA goes to Jersey when they want to go on vacation to the Ocean either.
The southern coast is more appealing because money tends to go further there then it does in New England. As far as no family connections going to New England sure you will find people from Pennsylvania going to New England because there job takes them there. It's really do to economics and geography and quite frankly it makes more sense for people in PA to go elsewhere on vacation and not head to New England.
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I agree with your political take historically, but the politics are also changing in Pennsylvania (for one, Gov. Wolf is arguably the most progressive Democrat elected in PA history).
Governor Wolf got elected because Corbett was horrible. That broke a decades long tradition of Republican Governor for 8 years and then a Democrat Governor for 8 years with the cycle repeating itself. Wolf getting elected didn't mark a major shift in PA politics it was due to Corbett being a loser.
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I don't understand, also, where you're getting this idea that Massachusetts has told other states what "how they should live their lives" vis-a-vis prohibition. Again, the impetus for the liquor laws and other "blue laws" in Pennsylvania was most definitely because of a "moralistic" approach.
Massachusetts along with other states such as New York and California are what you would call moralistic. They are far more "preachy" with how they think others should live there lives. People from Massachusetts will vote for something because they view it as the moral thing to do where as people in PA vote for something because they view it as pragmatic thing to do. As far as liquor laws go Pennsylvania again didn't start prohibition like Massachusetts did.
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