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I know I kind of started the argument about differences between Cambridge, MA and rural PA...That wasn't my intention. I could have gone from Cambridge to my hometown of Billerica, MA and I noticed cultural differences and the towns are only 20 miles apart in the same state. I'd also argue that in a lot of ways, PA is very similar to Mass, only more affordable. Boston and Philly are similar with their histories and transit. When I was in Harrisburg, it reminded me a bit of Haverhill, MA. But the more distinctive differences I saw were in rural areas. In Mass, a lot of our more rural areas still have a fairly progressive mindset, the Berkshires being the best example. But when I traveled to the more rural areas of PA, there was a greater religious and blue collar culture. Once again, these are just generalizations and certainly you can find exceptions to the rule.
I think that's completely fair and accurate. Pennsylvania does have more of an ingrained religious and blue collar influence in its rural areas compared to rural Massachusetts, but I think it still has a very distinct small town flavor (much more historic, tight knit, and has a cross section of Christian denominations and white ethnic influences) that could only be found in the Northeast. Even politically, it is more Republican based on century-old tradition, which would not have been out of the ordinary in the rest of the Northeast at one time.
In fact, it could perhaps be argued that Pennsylvania has maintained more of a character of the "old Northeast" while other states in the region evolved in different ways politically and socioeconomically.
Pennsylvania ( especially Erie/Pittsburgh) just has more elements of a Rust -Belt atmosphere than Massachusetts, although both are certainly northeastern states. Both states also have a fairly high percentage of Catholic residents, too, which is a northeastern trait..
I think my final statement on this is just going to be this: I definitely agree that there are, overall, distinct differences between PA and New England, as well as the rest of the country, but I happen to believe it is more similar to the rest of the Northeast than anywhere in the Midwest.
The problem with the Northeast in my view again is that the term is meaningless. If your going to say PA is closer to NY and NJ then it is to the Midwest okay. When you say it's closer to New England because it's part of the "Northeast" that's when the disagreements start.
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Regardless of where you live, people want their energy sources to be as sustainable as possible. That may be "moralistic," but it's also common sense. This applies to all regions of the country. Pennsylvanians, of course, believe this, as well:
"A Summary of Key Findings in Pennsylvannia:
● 66 percent of voters favor the EPA’s plan to cut carbon emissions from power plants -- including 87 percent of Democrats, 60 percent of independents, and 46 percent of Republicans.
● 63 percent of Pennsylvania voters would be more likely to support a candidate who supports that EPA plan over one who does not.
● 65 percent of voters favor candidates who accept the scientific consensus on climate disruption over those candidates who do not.
● 67 percent of voters are more likely to support a candidate who wants to increase the use of renewable energy rather than a candidate pushing to increase the use of traditional energy."
Because Vermont has a very good reputation for skiing?
I mean look, you mention that Marylanders come up to Pennsylvania for skiing. But Maryland herself has a few ski resorts, so why don't Marylanders just stay in their own state? Well maybe because they want something different or maybe they think they will find a better slope.
It is probably the same way for many Pennsylvanians. Who wants to do the same place all the time? Especially when you can easily travel to other states in just a few hours.
Since you mentioned New York - every summer the Philadelphia Orchestra appears in Saratoga Springs and also appears sometimes at Carnegie Hall in NYC. Both Saratoga Springs and NYC are a hop, skip and a jump to New England. So if it is close enough for the Philadelphia Orchestra, I think it is close enough for the Pennsylvanian traveler.
New England is not across the country and you could go there from PA if you really want to for vacation without having to spend days traveling there by car but as I stated earlier it comes down mostly to wanting to get more for your money. Now skiing isn't like going to the beach where people from PA just head south for that. So if you really want to go to New England for that you could if you want to. Yet most people from PA just don't go to New England.
I follow what you're saying a bit better now, but I think calling it "moralistic" confuses things and your use of the word "moral" is just odd. I don't think they're looked upon as moral issues, just a different view of what's beneficial. Many may consider green power more beneficial in the long run. I'm personally fine with somewhat more expensive electric power and less coal, electricity is a minor part of my budget and would rather pay more for cleaner air. Though I'm not against nuclear power.
It's not just green power though it's also other things like smoking bans because "it's bad for your health and you shouldn't be blowing smoke near others" that also falls under the whole progressive views as well. That is why leaders from moralistic states get labeled being "preachy" since they give off the vibe of "knowing what's actually good for you or not" and passing laws against smoking because "it's the right thing to do" which comes off as very condescending. Which was what I was trying to get at earlier with the whole preachy comment.
But Pennsylvania has much stricter anti-marijuana laws than Massachusetts. Wouldn't that count as "preachy" even more? Second-hand smoke could be constructed as protecting the rights of non-smokers not to get breath smoke.
The problem with the Northeast in my view again is that the term is meaningless. If your going to say PA is closer to NY and NJ then it is to the Midwest okay. When you say it's closer to New England because it's part of the "Northeast" that's when the disagreements start.
The Northeast is a long-recognized geographic region, and there are at least some commonalities between all of its states, but I will agree that of course PA is more aligned with NY and NJ compared to New England.
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Originally Posted by cwa1984
It's not just green power though it's also other things like smoking bans because "it's bad for your health and you shouldn't be blowing smoke near others" that also falls under the whole progressive views as well. That is why leaders from moralistic states get labeled being "preachy" since they give off the vibe of "knowing what's actually good for you or not" and passing laws against smoking because "it's the right thing to do" which comes off as very condescending. Which was what I was trying to get at earlier with the whole preachy comment.
I still don't understand where you're going with this. The vast majority of states, Pennsylvania included, bans smoking in public places, workplaces and restaurants because it's common sense and a public health issue. Do you think speeding laws are also "preachy?" How about child abuse prevention laws?
There's a major difference between regulating innocuous behavior in privacy of one's home and controlling behavior that infringes on the rights of others. You seem to be conflating the two.
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Originally Posted by cwa1984
New England is not across the country and you could go there from PA if you really want to for vacation without having to spend days traveling there by car but as I stated earlier it comes down mostly to wanting to get more for your money. Now skiing isn't like going to the beach where people from PA just head south for that. So if you really want to go to New England for that you could if you want to. Yet most people from PA just don't go to New England.
Most people from PA definitely stay in the mid-Atlantic region to go to the beach (NJ, DE and MD). Of course some will go South, as some will go to to New England. I think you're also forgetting that it does depend on the area of the state you live in. People living in the eastern part of the state do have a closer proximity to top spots in New England (historically, wealthy Philadelphians would actually "summer" in Maine).
I believe you're in the South-Central part of the state, so I can imagine that trip may be less common. I think that's really where the difference in perception lies.
Here's an interesting Harper poll I found on the top vacation spots for PA folks:
"The Jersey Shore is Pennsylvania’s top vacation destination with 33% of the commonwealth selecting it as their favorite vacation spot. This is in part due to overwhelming support from the Philadelphia/Southeast region, which picked the Jersey Shore 53% of the time. Maryland’s Eastern Shore comes in second with 17% of respondents picking it as their favorite vacation location. The Pocono mountains–the only destination included in the poll inside of the commonwealth–came in at a close third with 16% of the vote. Other destinations that received votes in the survey include Upstate New York (10%) and Deep Creek Lake, Maryland (7%)."
Interestingly, no Southern or New England spots showed up in the results, but again, as a large state, you're always going to find some people going everywhere.
The moralist political tradition began in New England, which shouldn't be surprising, given the huge level of direct democracy possible in the New England town meeting structure. But it spread westward everywhere Yankees settled, and is also quite common in the Upper Midwest and Utah. Even though Utah today is in one sense right wing, in another sense the Yankee tradition can still clearly be seen. For example, Utah decided this decade to give apartments no strings attached to homeless people, reducing their rate of homelessness by 74%. Shorn of the partisan shibboleths, Utah Republicans think of government in basically the same way that Massachusetts Democrats do - a force to make the world a better place. You would not see this sort of thing in the U.S. South, or even moderate states in the Lower Midwest - people would be up in arms about it.
Pennsylvania ( especially Erie/Pittsburgh) just has more elements of a Rust -Belt atmosphere than Massachusetts, although both are certainly northeastern states. Both states also have a fairly high percentage of Catholic residents, too, which is a northeastern trait..
Massachusetts has plenty of rust belt towns. Lowell, New Bedford, Holyoke, and Brockton all spring to mind. However, unlike Western Pennsylvania, no major part of Massachusetts hasn't really seen falling population (although individual cities have). Thus you often see the old mill towns surrounded by "suburbs" which are doing fairly well, whereas in Western PA you'd often find either no suburbs, or that the suburbs themselves are struggling and in decline.
The moralist political tradition began in New England, which shouldn't be surprising, given the huge level of direct democracy possible in the New England Town Meeting structure. But it spread westward everywhere Yankees settled, and is also quite common in the Upper Midwest and Utah. Even though Utah today is in one sense right wing, in another sense the Yankee tradition can still clearly be seen. For example, Utah decided this decade to give apartments no strings attached to homeless people, reducing their rate of homelessness by 78%. Shorn of the partisan shibboleths, Utah Republicans think of government in basically the same way that Massachusetts Democrats do - a force to make the world a better place. You would not see this sort of thing in the U.S. South, or even moderate states in the Lower Midwest - people would be up in arms about it.
It is interesting, however, that Southern New England is actually in the "Individualist" column, whereas Northern New England is where you see "Moralism." Kind of undermines any perceptions of Massachusetts being a "preachy" state.
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