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There is some urban breaks between Dallas and Ft Worth. Same with Washington DC and Baltimore since the two areas are not fully developed and linked together. SJ-SF are fully developed and linked together like glue with absolutely no breaks once so ever.
That’s 100% due to the regions geography, not economics which is what dictates MSA/CSA designation
The DC-Baltimore CSA and Dallas-Ft. Worth MSA have room to sprawl and thus naturally their metros are going to be developed less densely outside of their main arteries. That however does not mean they are less economically connected or have less infrastructure integration between them than SF/Oakland-SJ (despite the core cities being drastically different)
At the end of the day San Jose has its own distinct sphere of influence and operates too independently of SF/Oakland to justify it becoming part of their metro irregardless of the seamless physical development between the two regions.
Location: That star on your map in the middle of the East Coast, DMV
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the topper
There is some urban breaks between Dallas and Ft Worth. Same with Washington DC and Baltimore since the two areas are not fully developed and linked together. SJ-SF are fully developed and linked together like glue with absolutely no breaks once so ever.
There are some between DC/Baltimore due to designated gov't land/agricultural sites in between the two areas on some sides. There also is a major international airport. But there also are stretches of suburbia crossing the two MSA's that goes uninterrupted, it's just not as densely populated as the areas between SF/SJ:
Last edited by the resident09; 08-14-2020 at 10:51 AM..
Location: That star on your map in the middle of the East Coast, DMV
8,128 posts, read 7,560,868 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joakim3
That’s 100% due to the regions geography, not economics which is what dictates MSA/CSA designation
The DC-Baltimore CSA and Dallas-Ft. Worth MSA have room to sprawl and thus naturally their metros are going to be developed less densely outside of their main arteries. That however does not mean they are less economically connected or have less infrastructure integration between them than SF/Oakland-SJ (despite the core cities being drastically different)
At the end of the day San Jose has its own distinct sphere of influence and operates too independently of SF/Oakland to justify it becoming part of their metro irregardless of the seamless physical development between the two regions.
There is some urban breaks between Dallas and Ft Worth. Same with Washington DC and Baltimore since the two areas are not fully developed and linked together. SJ-SF are fully developed and linked together like glue with absolutely no breaks once so ever.
DFW and DC-Bmore are two different animals. The gaps between Dallas and FW are greenbelts.
That’s 100% due to the regions geography, not economics which is what dictates MSA/CSA designation
The DC-Baltimore CSA and Dallas-Ft. Worth MSA have room to sprawl and thus naturally their metros are going to be developed less densely outside of their main arteries. That however does not mean they are less economically connected or have less infrastructure integration between them than SF/Oakland-SJ (despite the core cities being drastically different)
At the end of the day San Jose has its own distinct sphere of influence and operates too independently of SF/Oakland to justify it becoming part of their metro irregardless of the seamless physical development between the two regions.
The entire way this goes down across the country baffles me because there are other multicore metros that are combined into 1 MSA, even though they may have their cores widely separated, with the development between them being similar to that among the cores in the Bay Area. DFW and greater Miami come to mind. For Miami, the straight shot drive between Miami and West Palm Beach is over 71 miles, yet those two cities are in the same MSA. If you stretch to Jupiter in the north part of Palm Beach County, the driving distance to Miami increases to 90 miles.
Correction: SJ and SF are completely two different cities and are independent from each other. These 2 cities are 50 miles away unlike Washington/Baltimore which are only 30 miles away.
I think what the poster to whom you're replying is trying to say is that the actual people that actually live in those areas see them different than us city geeks see them.
People who actually live in Balt & DC don't view the two as one entity, despite their proximity and overflow. It's people on this web page who try to shoehorn them into being a singular metropolitan entity.
The Bay Area, OTOH, is the opposite. People who actually live in the Bay Area see themselves as one singular, albeit multi-nodal/polycentric entity.
Just like people who actually native to Chicagoland see Chicago for the midwestern metropolis it is, rather than some lost east coast city that somehow got trapped in the midwest that many on this forum (usually Chicago transplants or folks who only know the city from pictures of the loop) try to make it to be.
Instead of trying to pigeonhole places into how we think they should be classified, how about we actually ask natives and residents of places how they see themselves....
Not sure why you're making this a comparison between the two, but...
...but there's an obvious and real connection back and forth of the two areas that increasingly have shown more synergy on a yearly basis. Which is why they get combined into a CSA. Saying these are just two nearby cities on the East Coast with no relation is misleading.
The connection can't be that strong or obvious if actual people living there don't even see or acknowledge it...
Location: That star on your map in the middle of the East Coast, DMV
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2000_Watts
The connection can't be that strong or obvious if actual people living there don't even see or acknowledge it...
I don't know where you're getting this from.
Notice I said a CSA, not MSA. Please note the difference here, an MSA is a single metropolitan area with one core, a CSA is not, and it can be bi/tri nodal.
People do not state the two cities form a single MSA, but they do acknowledge their being a shared region of two metros on top of one another with shared amenities or business activity. The relationship goes over the heads of most C-D posters who really have a simplistic view of this or no clue. There's DC and Baltimore as very distinctive cities or even out to their beltways. This is what people locally acknowledge as the area of pure distinction etc. Then there's the overall DC-Baltimore area that has suburbs on top of each other without much interruption and people cross commuting all over. There are companies that serve the "Baltimore-DC-NOVA" area etc. it's a marketing tool.
The bottom line here is, no matter how any of us "feel" about anything SF and SJ are separated metro areas by standard of the Census. All this "I feel like" stuff goes out the window really. San Jose would exist without SF believe it or not. SJ proper is bigger than SF, the tug and pull in that region is so balanced because of the geography, and San Jose's MSA is not that much smaller than SF.
Last edited by the resident09; 08-14-2020 at 05:30 PM..
I think what the poster to whom you're replying is trying to say is that the actual people that actually live in those areas see them different than us city geeks see them.
People who actually live in Balt & DC don't view the two as one entity, despite their proximity and overflow. It's people on this web page who try to shoehorn them into being a singular metropolitan entity.
The Bay Area, OTOH, is the opposite. People who actually live in the Bay Area see themselves as one singular, albeit multi-nodal/polycentric entity.
Just like people who actually native to Chicagoland see Chicago for the midwestern metropolis it is, rather than some lost east coast city that somehow got trapped in the midwest that many on this forum (usually Chicago transplants or folks who only know the city from pictures of the loop) try to make it to be.
Instead of trying to pigeonhole places into how we think they should be classified, how about we actually ask natives and residents of places how they see themselves....
See also: Cleveland +/- the rest of NE Ohio
I think Northeast Ohio is similar to the Bay Area in that regard. In the case here, there are four main factors where I think most people just see it as Northeast Ohio (instead of four different MSAs):
1. Proximity: The entirety of Northeast Ohio is still smaller in land area than a lot of MSAs (St. Louis and Minneapolis are two examples).
2. Media market: Cleveland-Akron-Canton have been in the same TV market my entire life (and may always have been). Most Cleveland network affiliates, up until the last 15 to 20 years, had Akron-Canton bureaus, but the news always contained stories from all three places, so that helped make all the different communities all seem like they were part of a bigger region. That's also why Youngstown is the odd-man in some ways because it has always had its own TV market so that area is more foreign to the average person from Cleveland-Akron-Canton because they never saw stories about the Youngstown-Warren communities on nightly TV.
3. Pro sports: Again this is where Youngstown deviates a bit because while I'd say the Cleveland teams are still the most popular (especially the Indians and Cavs), its not as strong as it is in Cleveland-Akron-Canton. Cleveland is a given, but Akron and Canton overwhelming also root for the Cleveland teams. I'm 40 years old and a big sports fan so I mainly listen to sports talk radio in my car. I'd bet a good 25 percent of the people who call in to talk about the Cleveland sports teams are people from the Akron and Canton area (and I'm not including those from the northern Summit/Portage County "Cleveland" suburbs).
4. High school league affiliation: This is what brings Youngstown back into the Cleveland-Akron-Canton sphere of Northeast Ohio. That's because a majority of the athletic conferences cross the arbitrary MSA lines. It is very common for schools from all four metros to compete against each other in athletics either in league games or regular season nonconference matchups. Then once you get to postseason, the teams are all merged into the same districts... for the most part its not until a team from Northeast Ohio advances to regional or state before they face another non Northeast Ohio team. So kind of like the TV market aspect, the amount of crossover games between schools makes each of the communities seem like they aren't some foreign entity.
With that, I still think Cleveland-Akron-Canton should be a singular MSA of 3.2 million and then Youngstown--Warren part of a bigger Northeast Ohio CSA. Because to the average person that's probably how they probably already think it is (like others have said, people here who are debating this topic are a very small minority of who even cares).
For me and the topic, I'm fascinated by it because before the last 10 to 15 years, I was one who just assumed Northeast Ohio was basically one entity... it blew my mind when I found out I lived in the Cleveland MSA but it was the Akron urban area ...Plus, I work (28 miles away) and its in the Canton MSA. FWIW, I've lived and worked in all four of the metros and never thought other than I simply moved... never looked at is as relocation to a different metro area because none of the moves were more than an hour away (give or take a couple minutes) from the west side of Cleveland where I'm originally from.
Though I will say that becoming knowledgeable about this topic that Youngstown would be the outlier if separating one by what I think the intent of MSAs were.
Last edited by ClevelandBrown; 08-14-2020 at 09:45 PM..
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