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Remember, back then there weren’t nearly as many CMSAs as there are CSAs now. So when the census bureau released the list of the largest metro areas, it was the CMSAs and MSAs together on the same list. Since 2003, CSAs and MSAs are on separate lists. This was probably done to make cities like Baltimore and Akron happy. In other words, it’s all politics!!
What a stroll down memory lane.
MSAs were called PMSAs, 'P' standing for Primary
Oakland, Ft Worth, Newark etc were all stand alone, I think St Paul and Minneapolis were together tho, can't remember.
Many current Metro Divisions follow those same boundaries.
Is there a list anywhere of all the MSAs going back to 1950 (not just the top 50, but all of them) along with their county makeups?
The reason I ask is that I seem to remember that the Huntsville MSA used to include Marshall County along with Madison County. I don't think it even included Limestone County decades ago.
Now, Morgan County (Decatur) should be included but is not, unless this latest definition (if it's ever released) finally includes it. Currently, there is a separate Decatur MSA even though everybody who has heard of the place considers "Huntsville Decatur" to be one place. It's already a CSA but not an MSA.
Oakland, Ft Worth, Newark etc were all stand alone, I think St Paul and Minneapolis were together tho, can't remember.
Many current Metro Divisions follow those same boundaries.
Sounds like fun times. I think they should go back.
Having the PMSAs and CMSA all on one list might end some confusion too.
I think the validity questioning is because of how spread out some CSAs are, not because they are confused.
The only confusing part is when people use CSA data and another poster responds to the data using the primary city in the CSA to draw conclusions from the data.
For example : posting a list of CSAs by population.
Nothing confusing yet. Totally acceptable.
Then someone comes and sees that Washington- Baltimore CSA is more populated than Chicago and comments that DC is bigger than Chicago. Very confusing. DC isn't bigger than Chicago, the CSA is.
Maybe having both on the same list clears up some of that. Heck , they could stick with metro division and CSA and get rid of MSA. MSAs are getting just as spread out as CSAs. Only problem is some MSAs don't have metro divisions and we would end up with the situation where Riverside is bigger than DC, SF, Boston, Philadelphia, Miami, Dallas, Seattle. Phoenix.
Maybe having both on the same list clears up some of that. Heck , they could stick with metro division and CSA and get rid of MSA. MSAs are getting just as spread out as CSAs. Only problem is some MSAs don't have metro divisions and we would end up with the situation where Riverside is bigger than DC, SF, Boston, Philadelphia, Miami, Dallas, Seattle. Phoenix.
Agree 100%. Some of these MSAS are massive. Some are more or less the same as the MSA (Houston and Vegas). Some of the CSAs are so physically large in comparison to the core city it doesn't make sense.
I think the best way would be to simply make Metro Divisions the entirety make up of CSAs (give it a new name) and eliminate MSAs altogether. if a place really cant support to Metro Divisions then just stick with the MSA definition under the new name.
When people reference MSA, its no more accurate descriptor for the size of DC than the CSA is IMO.
IMHO "Metro Boston" really is only like 2 million people. After that your getting into "Greater Boston" and more disconnected suburbs. 2 million feels accurate for the number of people living and manuevering in the true Boston area, but the influence in media/sports extends much further into that 5-8 M person range. Bu they are anchored around cities and suburbs 20 miles outside of Boston like Brockton, Lynn, Lowell, Framingham, Taunton, Lawrence and out to Worcester Providence and New Bedford. Those places have their own papers/media/customs (e.g. North Sore Roast beef, South Shore Bar Pizza) They're not really "Boston" oriented in the same way as that core 2 million. Again- why NECTAs exist and probably why New England MSAs were by town until 1975..
Agree 100%. Some of these MSAS are massive. Some are more or less the same as the MSA (Houston and Vegas). Some of the CSAs are so physically large in comparison to the core city it doesn't make sense.
I think the best way would be to simply make Metro Divisions the entirety make up of CSAs (give it a new name) and eliminate MSAs altogether. if a place really cant support to Metro Divisions then just stick with the MSA definition under the new name.
When people reference MSA, its no more accurate descriptor for the size of DC than the CSA is IMO.
IMHO "Metro Boston" really is only like 2 million people. After that your getting into "Greater Boston" and more disconnected suburbs. 2 million feels accurate for the number of people living and manuevering in the true Boston area, but the influence in media/sports extends much further into that 5-8 M person range. Bu they are anchored around cities and suburbs 20 miles outside of Boston like Brockton, Lynn, Lowell, Framingham, Taunton, Lawrence and out to Worcester Providence and New Bedford. Those places have their own papers/media/customs (e.g. North Sore Roast beef, South Shore Bar Pizza) They're not really "Boston" oriented in the same way as that core 2 million. Again- why NECTAs exist and probably why New England MSAs were by town until 1975..
Although I agree with you. And it is something I just proposed, I do see how uneven the application would be. It would heavily favor western metros if people focus too much on the metro division portion and ignore the greater area.
To make it work all lists would have to have both sets of Data. Focusing on just metro division
#1 and 2 would stay the same,
Chicago would drop to #4,
5 would be Atlanta then
6 would be Riverside ,
7 would be Phoenix,
8 would be DC,
9 would be Dallas and
10 would be Minneapolis.
Places like Denver and Tampa would probably be way ahead of Philadelphia, Boston and SF.
I think the whole thing would have to be reworked to give more weight to commerce. But even then, I don't see how they would get around physically large counties like Riverside, San Bernardino, Maricopa, Clark, etc. The OMB would have to get really creative to make a standalone metro division list not shock our senses. But mixing in a slimmed down csa would probably work.
Edit: I just looked it up and I am off. DC and Dallas metro divisions are bigger than Riverside/ SB
Agree 100%. Some of these MSAS are massive. Some are more or less the same as the MSA (Houston and Vegas). Some of the CSAs are so physically large in comparison to the core city it doesn't make sense.
I think the best way would be to simply make Metro Divisions the entirety make up of CSAs (give it a new name) and eliminate MSAs altogether. if a place really cant support to Metro Divisions then just stick with the MSA definition under the new name.
When people reference MSA, its no more accurate descriptor for the size of DC than the CSA is IMO.
IMHO "Metro Boston" really is only like 2 million people. After that your getting into "Greater Boston" and more disconnected suburbs. 2 million feels accurate for the number of people living and manuevering in the true Boston area, but the influence in media/sports extends much further into that 5-8 M person range. Bu they are anchored around cities and suburbs 20 miles outside of Boston like Brockton, Lynn, Lowell, Framingham, Taunton, Lawrence and out to Worcester Providence and New Bedford. Those places have their own papers/media/customs (e.g. North Sore Roast beef, South Shore Bar Pizza) They're not really "Boston" oriented in the same way as that core 2 million. Again- why NECTAs exist and probably why New England MSAs were by town until 1975..
Which is why I find Urban Area more accurate in general in terms of how "big" a place is. It's not perfect especially in the NE (i.e. some division just makes no sense...as if DC and Waldorf are really that separated, or Baltimore and Aberdeen/Bel Air, etc.). At a minimum you kept, let say, Worcester and Leominster/Fitchburg apart since those two are definitely two separated area, even though both are in Worcester Co, or how you can add LA and Inland Empire without adding Palm Springs or Victorville.
Urban areas are quirky as well. I think Downton Clayton NC is in Raleigh’s urbanized area. While Archer’s Lodge-Clayton is a separate urbanized area a mile down the highway.
Sounds like fun times. I think they should go back.
Having the PMSAs and CMSA all on one list might end some confusion too.
I think the validity questioning is because of how spread out some CSAs are, not because they are confused.
The only confusing part is when people use CSA data and another poster responds to the data using the primary city in the CSA to draw conclusions from the data.
For example : posting a list of CSAs by population.
Nothing confusing yet. Totally acceptable.
Then someone comes and sees that Washington- Baltimore CSA is more populated than Chicago and comments that DC is bigger than Chicago. Very confusing. DC isn't bigger than Chicago, the CSA is.
Maybe having both on the same list clears up some of that. Heck , they could stick with metro division and CSA and get rid of MSA. MSAs are getting just as spread out as CSAs. Only problem is some MSAs don't have metro divisions and we would end up with the situation where Riverside is bigger than DC, SF, Boston, Philadelphia, Miami, Dallas, Seattle. Phoenix.
I am 99% certain the reason why they overhauled the entire system is because the LA PMSA surpassed NYC in population in 1990.
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