Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
It's true that many northern cities are dying, but I personally have not been attracted to many southern cities. There is not as much history, culture, interesting architecture, unique food, seasonal changes, powerful schools, mixed public transportation, and ethnic neighborhoods in certain new sun belt cities.
Location: from houstoner to bostoner to new yorker to new jerseyite ;)
4,084 posts, read 12,683,905 times
Reputation: 1974
Quote:
Originally Posted by coldwine
The term "rustbelt" is no longer appropriate. Many places are changing and changing dramatically. In some areas, there are dying cities, but that's happening everywhere in the United States. It's by no means limited to any one region. Most areas in the midwest and Great Lakes have moved on to different things. It's an agonizing process, a restructuring that takes generations, but it does happen.
Yes, even Detroit is changing its ways, and it's no longer what it was... That's both good and bad.
The untold story is the bleeding of unskilled labor from the midwest/northeast to the south. Yes, wages are low and so are costs, and at least for right now, that's fine. But those workers will get older, and they will need more money, and there's no infrastructure in place in the states that don't like to tax or unionize to take care of them. The south is growing, and it's because you can get paid nothing and live on next to nothing down there.
But the water is drying up, folks. The land in the south was never meant to be habitated, and the further west you go the more radical this fact becomes. Florida is literally sinking itself and its beaches are disappearing. Texas and Georgia have severe problems with pumping enough water to keep themselves, and their artifical agriculture, afloat.
Mark my words, the day will come when the old unskilled laborers need more and more, the land supports less and less, and the infrastructure that worships the suburbs will all put the bill on the table. Michigan and Ohio learned this the hard way, but they did so in a time when it was a hell of a lot easier to move elsewhere for work. There's no more Sunbelt left to flee to if you want to support yourself and your family by standing in an auto line or laying electric lines for new housing. All the aches and pains of these "old" cities in the cold north will have been solved by the very ills that nearly killed them. Michigan, for example, is hell bent on building an extensive light rail system, and Michigan has the perfect square grid patterns in a very large, organized metro area to support it. The Great Lake States and the northeast have the educational institutions to churn out the value-added positions we need.
It doesn't make the news, but it's something I've personally seen. Old people are returning north. They're not interested in staying south anymore, not even for the winter. The South was built on the economic basis of a population that needed very little, little more than paved roads and crappy jobs. The era of high-returns for industries like tourism is over, and they will have to find new ways to cope. As people age they need that city environment if they are to have access to healthcare, and the high-tax cities in the north have the resources to provide. In return, we receive their knowledge on things like city councils-- Michigan has some fabulous examples of this bizarre situation.
But again, and this I swear, the southeast portion of this nation and Texas will one day see the same economic catastrophe that destroyed the midwest. There's a critical problem in cash flow from industries that will not remain viable on the insular economic premises that funded the last building boom.
You have some very bizarre ideas about the South. I responded to you in that other thread that was deleted, but here I don't even know where to begin... Only cities in the North have great healthcare? Oh, my mistake, the South doesn't have the right kind of "city environment" to support senior citizens, according to you. Huh? And the South has no great educational institutions? Texas has problems with getting enough water? The only place I've ever heard of anything nearing drought conditions is in Central Texas (Austin), certainly not where I live, nor the eastern half of Texas which is the most populated. And that's just for starters... ay ay ay! Oh, and um... Florida is in the EAST.
Last edited by houstoner; 12-14-2008 at 06:32 PM..
I have never really understood what is meant when northerners state that there is not as much history in the south as there is the north. It especially seems odd to me when I take into consideration the fact that many northerners can only trace their roots back in this country maybe 100 - 150 years. Many southerners can go back much further than that. My family came to this country in the 1600s. I do not know what northerners see when they come here, but I see plenty of history around me. Unfortunately, some of it is being lost. As for culture, most American musical genres have originated in the south. What do people think they would be listening to now if not for southerners? Unique food? The south is famous for “southern cooking”.
I am not trying to encourage more migration. I really would like to know what people mean about the north being more historical though.
I agree with you on that. The oldest cities in the US (St Augustine, Savannah, Charelston) are all in the south. Most ppl up here are either directly from another country or only a few generations here such as myself. Most Southerners cant even trace there roots...lol
It's true that many northern cities are dying, but I personally have not been attracted to many southern cities. There is not as much history, culture, interesting architecture, unique food, seasonal changes, powerful schools, mixed public transportation, and ethnic neighborhoods in certain new sun belt cities.
There are cities in the Midwest that are doing poorly, but even if you count everyone in Detroit, St. Louis, Cleveland, Youngstown and Flint, you're still only looking at 2% of all the people who live in the Midwest (and obviously it's not like everyone living in these cities are unhappy).
People moved from the North to the South from the 80's through the 2000's because the South was very unpopulated compared to the tens of millions in the North during the first 200 years of the US' history. Much of this was because of the lack of industry and the lack of air conditioning.
What we're seeing now is obviously just a natural progression with the advent of air conditioning and JOBS.
The Northeast and Midwest are STILL growing as they have been since Europeans arrived in the 1600's.
I always roll my eyes when it's said that the northern and midwestern areas are DYING. They're not even shrinking!
The re-distribution from the north to south is what's taken place over our recent history, but it's just natural. It's not like EVERYONE from the north is moving south, it's all just evening out right now.
I think it's usually because they get cold easily. When you're old or sedentary, your metabolism slows and you have trouble keeping warm. So the south is pretty much for snowbirds and couch potatoes [just kidding ].
You are generally right about the scene in southern cities. Although there are notable exceptions [like New Orleans, Miami], many southern cities back in the 80's [and even 90's] were ghost towns after 5pm, unlike the larger, thriving northern cities. That has changed somewhat with the downtown development that's taken place in the south since [Charlotte for example - dead in the 80's, more happening now].
It certainly isn't only retirees moving south...it's people of all ages.
Southern cities have a very rich history and historical places located within. Before making such statements, you should look into this a little further.
It's true that many northern cities are dying, but I personally have not been attracted to many southern cities. There is not as much history, culture, interesting architecture, unique food, seasonal changes, powerful schools, mixed public transportation, and ethnic neighborhoods in certain new sun belt cities.
To bad it isn't true that northern cities are dying. Some rust belt cities have now turned the corner, and others eventually will.
Who knows. Maybe 20 years from now Atlanta might even burst and they will start having a population shift and they will be considered "dying".
Things cycle, no city is "dying". I am getting sick of here this, "northern cities are dying" bs. It makes no sense at all.
B/c people move. They move north, south, east, west. They follow jobs, family, lovers, schools, dreams...there are a million reasons to move, and I imagine each person who moves south has his or her own reason.
Until the Northern States bring "Right to Work" into law and loses the Union mentality, the Rust Belt will continue to get larger. ...Even many American companies are closing northern offices and moving to Alabama of all places. They build new, bring the jobs down, or hire direct, yet offer the same packages as up north. The benefit, No UAW.
And wouldn't it be awesome if Michigan and Ohio were on the forefront of implementing "Right to Work"? What if Illinois, Indiana, Kentucky, and West Virginia followed suit? You might begin to see a gradual fall in the unemployment rate and rise in, uhmmmm...people with positive psychology.
With the South's lower taxes, less congested urban areas (sans the huge cities), and more business-friendly climate, no wonder companies based internationally or in the North are building en masse down south. Atlanta, Charlotte, Raleigh, and Memphis provide the ability to ship cargo directly anywhere on earth. Charleston, Mobile, Miami, and Houston are burgeoning port cities.
The only two Southern states really struggling economically are Louisiana and Kentucky, and even Louisiana with Gov. Jindal is doing a much better job than Kentucky in drawing private-sector jobs. (KY and LA still have high unemployment rates, though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thedudewiththeplan
I consider "Right to work" one of the worst programs there is! When I worked in cargo at the Atlanta airport, many employees from NYC and Chicago who moved down for work complained about how much worse it was for them with no Unions. Up there, they had set work hours, in Atlanta you worked as long as the boss wanted you to, and with very little in terms of rights. Since there was no real Union protection, the management could get away with making the employees do almost anything in order to keep there jobs! I would take a Union state over a "Right to work" state anyday!
"Right to work" is one of the best programs there is. I work at a non-Union retailer in Kentucky (which admittedly is not a "Right to Work" state, but they're still not beheld to the monkey around their neck.) They're almost unreasonable about sticking to corporate rules and not allowing anybody to work more than they're supposed to. If our bosses asked their employees to stay, it would be fully outlined that overtime pay would be on their next paycheck and to simply stay until the job gets done.
In terms of rights, what rights? What are we entitled to as workers? Obviously each state or city can pass laws mandating minimum wage, minimum benefits, etc. for workers. But if mistreatment of workers can not be tangibly and firmly proven--not based on the sometimes ignorant feelings of workers--then cities and states can't and won't do anything to prosecute management and companies. That's even the case in non-RTW states.
Oh, and by the way, the most unethical employer I've ever had in terms of employee treatment, and consequently the worst in employee morale, was a union employer!
Unions served their purpose 50-100 years ago and have been extremely instrumental in expanding individual privileges and getting them passed, by law, into rights. Thank a union for getting the ball rolling around the nation about child labor, 40 hour work weeks, benefits, etc. But sometimes enough is enough; they've not changed their mindset or attitude since the 1950s, and that lack of adaptation to the modern business climate is the reason many people hate unions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by coldwine
The south is growing, and it's because you can get paid nothing and live on next to nothing down there.
But the water is drying up, folks. The land in the south was never meant to be habitated, and the further west you go the more radical this fact becomes. Florida is literally sinking itself and its beaches are disappearing. Texas and Georgia have severe problems with pumping enough water to keep themselves, and their artifical agriculture, afloat.
It doesn't make the news, but it's something I've personally seen. Old people are returning north. They're not interested in staying south anymore, not even for the winter. The South was built on the economic basis of a population that needed very little, little more than paved roads and crappy jobs.
But again, and this I swear, the southeast portion of this nation and Texas will one day see the same economic catastrophe that destroyed the midwest. There's a critical problem in cash flow from industries that will not remain viable on the insular economic premises that funded the last building boom.
I don't doubt that the South will one day topple. It might not be for 100 years, but the South won't rise forever. Although, the average wage for jobs is rising more rapidly in the deep South than it is in the upper Midwest; I believe Alabama is poised to surpass Michigan in average per capita income in 2009. That's telling! The wages and COL really aren't increasing any faster than the rate of inflation.
But many people will stay in the South b/c of a possibility of personal variables--warmer weather, culture, landscape, etc. If anything, yuppies are really helping to bring Northern cities back to life. I was in Cincinnati two weeks ago, it was just amazing to see the number of 20- and 30-somethings that work downtown, and more of them are moving to places like east Over-the-Rhine, Mount Adams, Covington's (KY) Mainstrasse District, etc. Stories like that can be told of Cleveland, Boston, Baltimore, and, shoot, New Yawk City.
As for this "critical problem in cash flow from industries...", what are you talking about?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
].
