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Is a significant part of the problem with health care in our country the use of for profit medical services providers and insurance companies to provide what some believe is a "right" to medical care?
Note, I am not advocating for socialized medicine, just trying to understand how other people see this part of the issue.
Medical service companies spend a lot of money to come with new, more effective drugs and equipment so they can make money. Even insurance companies are "for profit" companies. The people who manage these companies most likely are paid based on the success of those companies in achieving certain financial goals.
People like nurses and doctors who go in to medicine have to go through a lot of expensive training and do so with the expectation that they will be able to make a good living in return.
Is the other side of this that people who make the money can (should) be able to afford the best medical care?
If we go the other way and say that medical care is a right, then should the medical system be changed from a "for profit" system to a social service system?
If so, can we still expect the same level of medical care and new medical advances?
No one has any 'right' to any particular level of health care. No one has any 'right' to have others subsidize or completely cover their health care.
Everyone has the right to work, to make their own way and to pay for their own insurance or pay for their own care on an 'as needed' basis.
Exactly. You want healthcare, get a job which pays for it, or pay for it out of your own pocket. It isn't my responsibility or societies responsibility to pay your way through life.
And no, I don't expect, nor do I want you to pay one cent in tax to give me healthcare or anything else for that matter.
Exactly. You want healthcare, get a job which pays for it, or pay for it out of your own pocket. It isn't my responsibility or societies responsibility to pay your way through life.
And no, I don't expect, nor do I want you to pay one cent in tax to give me healthcare or anything else for that matter.
1. What if that job doesn't exist? And don't pretend it always does. This country has been through a period where unemployment hit double digit levels. Walmart (which doesn't provide health insurance) has thousands of people apply in some cities for a couple of hundred job openings.
2. What if its an illness or physical condition that keeps you from being able to work and get a job that pays for health care?
3. What about those that are too young to hold a job? If you believe in Medicaid and CHIPs that's fine, but you ought to say so. One gets the impression what you are saying applies to everyone.
4. How does an ordinary person on any wage "pay for health care"? Its the most expensive service or item available. The reason we talk so much about insurance is that unless one is wealthy, its the only access available to any health care that goes beyond seeing a family doctor.
The problem is that this notion that everyone who is willing to "work a little harder" would be able to pay for their own health care is rapidly becoming a pipedream pandered by rightwing groups.
1. What if that job doesn't exist? And don't pretend it always does. This country has been through a period where unemployment hit double digit levels. Walmart (which doesn't provide health insurance) has thousands of people apply in some cities for a couple of hundred job openings.
2. What if its an illness or physical condition that keeps you from being able to work and get a job that pays for health care?
3. What about those that are too young to hold a job? If you believe in Medicaid and CHIPs that's fine, but you ought to say so. One gets the impression what you are saying applies to everyone.
4. How does an ordinary person on any wage "pay for health care"? Its the most expensive service or item available. The reason we talk so much about insurance is that unless one is wealthy, its the only access available to any health care that goes beyond seeing a family doctor.
The problem is that this notion that everyone who is willing to "work a little harder" would be able to pay for their own health care is rapidly becoming a pipedream pandered by rightwing groups.
And how is ANY of that my problem and/or responsibility? These people out there are having children they cannot afford (a pipe dream of the liberal left). Its not my responsibility to work to provide health insurance for anyone, anyplace, anytime.
I'll put it to you in a different way: How many families have you PERSONALLY sponsored and paid for, and/or subsidized their healthcare, out of YOUR pocket? How many checks have you written to cover little Johnny's broken arm? Answer: NONE.
Its wonderful and nice to have healthcare for all; so long as someone else pays for it and/or you pay very little. How about we stop people from having children they cannot afford, so this issue doesn't even become an issue? A subject/topic the liberal left won't discuss.
And how is ANY of that my problem and/or responsibility? These people out there are having children they cannot afford (a pipe dream of the liberal left). Its not my responsibility to work to provide health insurance for anyone, anyplace, anytime.
I'll put it to you in a different way: How many families have you PERSONALLY sponsored and paid for, and/or subsidized their healthcare, out of YOUR pocket? How many checks have you written to cover little Johnny's broken arm? Answer: NONE.
Its wonderful and nice to have healthcare for all; so long as someone else pays for it and/or you pay very little. How about we stop people from having children they cannot afford, so this issue doesn't even become an issue? A subject/topic the liberal left won't discuss.
You didn't answer my questions because you couldn't do it without coming across as either Ebenezer Scrooge or just plain irrational. It is indeed irrational to imagine this country could ever just deny children basic health care while tolerating some of the conspicuous consumption that goes on in America.
Its irrelevant how much charity I've supplied. In my tax bracket, I can promise you that I've paid for an endless amount of medical care for others. I do so uncomplainingly and my overall taxes are high. In short, I'm doing my part and than some. So, yes, this gives me a moral right to judge others. I ought to add though, that my wife is a nurse and has volunteered at an endless number of clinics over the years. On occasion, I've helped her. FTR, I've also served for years, gratis, as a director on a board for a Community Health Center that provided low income people with health services. I think that we have done plenty.
If you can come up with a way to keep people from having children they can't afford than I'm willing to listen. I don't know of a way other than putting contraception in the water supply.
1. What if that job doesn't exist? And don't pretend it always does. This country has been through a period where unemployment hit double digit levels. Walmart (which doesn't provide health insurance) has thousands of people apply in some cities for a couple of hundred job openings.
That's the radical left-wing excuse. And they have one for everything. Typical uneducated, uncultured left-wing, loaded up to the gills with a boatload of attributes, like "right-wing", "irrational", etc etc.
The true meaning of "irrational" is increasing minimum wage, hiking taxes, and going berserk with regulation. And naive, fantasizing liberals wonder why unemployment is high. And what do they propose? More taxes, more regulation, and have Govt mandate private businesses to pay more for their least skilled workers.
Liberals love Sweden, and here is a story about Sweden. In the 60s and 70s Sweden did pretty much what we are doing now -- socializing industries, and adding entitlements on top of entitlements. But the country got in a funk. Same old, Same old, high unemployment, no jobs, more poverty, etc etc. What did Sweden do? Gasp liberals!! In the 80s and 90s Sweden started reforms -- reduced regulations, lowered taxes. Swedish liberals didn't get too hung-up with propagandistic slogans, like "trickle down economics", but got to work to un-shackle the private sector from the Govt's chokehold. The result? Today Sweden is one of the most competitive countries in the world.
Would be nice if liberals learned from Sweden not only how to implement socialism here, but also how to develop capitalism as the cure for an anemic economy.
So the answer to lack of jobs is more Capitalism and less Socialism (i.e. Government). Just like Sweden.
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359
2. What if its an illness or physical condition that keeps you from being able to work and get a job that pays for health care?
If you are legitimately riddled with a disease of physical condition, I would be more than happy to pay for you, after you have exhausted your own means.
The only Govt Agency I would expand is prosecution of fraud. And I would quadruple fines and jail times.
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359
3. What about those that are too young to hold a job? If you believe in Medicaid and CHIPs that's fine, but you ought to say so. One gets the impression what you are saying applies to everyone.
Kids are covered, based on the income of their parents and legal guardians, and after assets are exhausted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359
4. How does an ordinary person on any wage "pay for health care"? Its the most expensive service or item available. The reason we talk so much about insurance is that unless one is wealthy, its the only access available to any health care that goes beyond seeing a family doctor.
Our states cover low-income adults. That's Medicaid. Young workers can get catastrophic Insurance. Let them shop throughout the country for better deals. My best friend (self-employed) in CT, two years ago got Aetna's Catastrophic Insurance for about $ 230/month for a couple, with $ 5000 / $ 12,500 deductibles. 3 wellness visits covered, including seeing a family doctor for common problems. If he got a more complicated problem, he will pay, but at least he is not going bankrupt. That's a chance he is taking. Plus watching his diet, etc. etc.
Pre-Obamacare, didn't we have 90% of adults covered? So Obamacare is destroying the healthcare for 90% while claiming to help the 10%?
Surely we needed better healthcare products, but blowing up the system to copy an utopian / European / Canadian system that is heading for disaster is the answer to you? Go read the links I provided on what is happening to the UHC in those countries.
And our healthcare was the most expensive, because it is heavily regulated, contaminated by Govt interference, and a product which is the furthest thing from free market / Capitalist supply-and-demand.
Health care isn't a natural right. But society is better off and more moral when everyone has access to health care. Most of the industrialized world has already figured this out. Europe has figured health care out for the most part. To say that the European/Canadian model of health care is heading for disaster is nonsense. I mean, it's shockingly ignorant to hold this belief and I'm almost positive that anyone that holds it has never been to any of these countries. Health care works very well in Norway, very well in Germany, very well in France. Even in Britain it works very well.
The US system of profits over people will never ever work. There are just too many incentives too overcharge patients and provide them with care they don't need instead of incentives to have a true honest public system of health care.
To say that the European/Canadian model of health care is heading for disaster is nonsense. I mean, it's shockingly ignorant to hold this belief and I'm almost positive that anyone that holds it has never been to any of these countries. Health care works very well in Norway, very well in Germany, very well in France. Even in Britain it works very well.
There is two ways to settle this: anecdotal or statistical / economic facts. Which one do you want to debate? Then we'll see which is the ignorant argument.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldous9
The US system of profits over people will never ever work. There are just too many incentives too overcharge patients and provide them with care they don't need instead of incentives to have a true honest public system of health care.
We understand that socialists hate Capitalism. Yet, this Capitalism was the engine that powered our country past all your idols. Actually some smart Europeans left Europe to innovate and establish a different country, over in America. These people tried to get away from a system you are trying to regress us back to.
Economically speaking, and healthcare-wise. It is no secret that we have the best doctors in the world. Europe's best doctors are trained in US.
It is no secret that our medical technology is the best. And pharmaceutical products is head above shoulders to the rest of the world.
They, Europe included, copy our technology, and still can't match us.
America was never built for the average. It was built for the best. It's like you being a A student, and we trying to tell you that you should copy, and do what the B student does. It only makes sense in the liberal brains.
We understand that socialists hate Capitalism. Yet, this Capitalism was the engine that powered our country past all your idols. Actually some smart Europeans left Europe to innovate and establish a different country, over in America. These people tried to get away from a system you are trying to regress us back to.
America was never built for the average. It was built for the best. It's like you being a A student, and we trying to tell you that you should copy, and do what the B student does. It only makes sense in the liberal brains.
Really? A little absurd don't you think?
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