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For me the issue isn't about individual rights but what it says about a society that places a monetary value on who lives and who dies or who is simply capable of maintaing some degree of health. If the most primitive societies took care of its members as well as it could despite the limitations of their medical knowledge and skill, it raises troubling questions as to what we actually mean when we define ourselves as a modern and advanced civilization if we can not do the same for the members of our society.
Exactly.
There is nothing so sick as to watch people cheer for the death of the ill because "they deserve it." I've lost track of the number of cranky old sociopaths I've run into who truly believe that everyone who is need of difficult to afford medical aid is a "taker" a "welfare bum" and a "leech." - they are all ardent fans of greed and believe that health care should go only to the highest bidder.
It'll be sad and amusing to watch them demand cheap healthcare as they age and their own bodies fail. Typical hypocrisy for that crowd.
I got a Birth Certificate from Mt Sinai, and a few diplomas on the wall. So thank you very much.
Do you want to discuss the issue at hand or would you rather attack posters personally? Or you want me to respond in kind, which I would be happy to oblige?
Not an attack, merely an observation. I didn't finish high school, yet oddly enough, I feel perfectly at ease discussing the issue at hand with you. And you are welcome.
(Mods - don't know if this should be in the health forum or not - I thought it might be a larger moral issue worth all of us discussing)
As a healthy person with money, it's clear now that I'm one of the people who will be balancing the new health care system on my back. And really if you think about it, the insurance system has always been based on the premise that healthy people will pay more in premiums than they get in services while unhealthy people will get more in services than they pay in premiums.
So, I keep thinking about what degree of health care I'm really willing to pay for other people to have.
What degree of health care is a RIGHT for EVERYONE (and thus those who can't afford the care should have it paid for by others in their society.)
I'm thinking that these are the health care services I think are a RIGHT for citizens in prosperous countries:
* Dental care.
* Vision care to maintain 20/20 in people under 70.
* Immunizations for people under 18.
* Setting broken bones.
* Diagnostic services
* Antibiotics (as long as they're really needed and not improperly prescribed.)
* All care for people injured in defense of our country.
Beyond that, I'm not sure.
Is it really someone's RIGHT to: cancer treatments, pain medications, any kind of care for people over 70, and etc.?
I can see many of you arguing that if those illnesses/problem's AREN'T treated it costs our society more money in the long run, but . . . does that make health care for those problems a RIGHT?
What degree of health care do YOU think should be a RIGHT for EVERYONE to have?
You have the RIGHT to expect I don't break your nose, or your arm.
You do not have the "right" to confiscate any other person's income to pay for your health care--or the health care of any children you choose to create. Those people do not "owe" you anything.
The insurance system, and government assistance, both cause costs to skyrocket far past what they reasonably need to be--and this is why Obamacare can't work. You can't have a for-profit health care system and just say the taxpayer will pick up the tab for EVERYONE getting the best health care possible.
Take the case of Lasix surgery, which is not covered by insurance. It costs under $4,000 here in (very expensive) NH to get both eyes fixed to perfect vision, using the most technologically advanced method for a "worst case" scenario of thin corneas and very wide eye dilation--for a person who couldn't see a hand in front of the face since age 14 (my spouse).
But walk into the emergency room after breaking your upper arm (humerus), even when nothing is done but put the arm in a sling, and EVEN WITH INSURANCE, you'll still end up paying THOUSANDS out of pocket to the hospital, doctors and ambulance company (me). How much "health care" was really provided? One X-ray. This is what happens when we set up systems where either government or an insurer is involved in the process.
And with your wonderful education and endless ambition why in the world would you have to entrust your healthcare to the govt.? You should be able to go wherever you please. And if you don't want to pay for others, you're in the wrong place. I don't have kids and I don't want to educate yours. I don't have a car, I don't want to pay for roads. I don't believe in war, I don't want to pay for the military. Get the picture?
We get the picture. You're a selfish person who wants to benefit from society, bbut wants to pay nothing to MAINTAIN that society!
Unless you grow and hunt all your own food...the groceries you bought at the store traveled there on ROADS YOU DON'T WANT TO PAY FOR...transported by people who, at some point had to be educated ON SOMEONE'S NICKEL OTHER THAN YOURS...
People like you make me sick. You got all the benefits and now you want to deny them to everyone else. You reaped the rewards and now refuse to pay the piper. Typical Republican ashwipe.
So the Federal Govt is to divert money from the Defense budget, to somehow pay for the healthcare services you think everyone should get. Ok. How much $ should the Federal Govt take out, and how much $$ is it gonna cost the Federal Govt to pay for those services you mentioned?
As much as it takes.
The ONLY Constitutional use of our military is to defend our own borders. PERIOD.
Our priorities in this country are way screwed up.
Absolutely ridiculous argument for someone so intelligent. I said that you will not need the ACA nor will your children so where's the argument? You counter with examples that have been part of our society for a long time. And none of which would concern me other than Medicare and social security at 65 which I'm sure you won't refuse either. I've had private health ins. since I was 18. I've paid my way, paid my taxes, and have only complained about unnecessary military actions, waste, and excess. I've never begrudged those less fortunate than myself no matter how they got there. When I had to give a little more, I did. When there was more than I needed, I though of others. That's the way I was raised. That's my religion. Not an idol in a fancy building. I want you to tell me how your version of Liberty is better than mine. I want you to tell me how caring for everyone, no matter what, and not leaving anyone behind infringes on your personal freedom or leads to communism.
Except when it came to educating their children or building their roads, right?
Which side of this issue are you ON, exactly?
You seem to blow hot and cold out of the same mouth.
I have a question. How does requiring people to have health INSURANCE going to lower the cost of HEALTHCARE?
The risk is spread over a larger group of people.
It works the same way that EVERYONE having auto insurance means that an accident does not ruin you financially. Now, getting unlucky enough to get an expensive disease does not ruin you.
Do you know that prior to Obamacare, the single largest cause of bankruptcies in this country are caused by medical problems?
Now, it is too soon to tell, but if this trend reverses under Obamacare, then we did something right.
Nobody should be bankrupted just because they got unlucky enough to get sick.
When saying someone has a "right" to expensive health care (even if he never does anything productive in his life), we are actually saying that anyone who works somehow "owes" every needy person all the money it takes to provide health care.
I can't see how any court could support a worker legally OWING money to someone he never even met, just because the other person can't afford his own health care. But we accomplish the same thing through the tax system.
And what happens when "guaranteeing" health care to everyone results in a bill from Big Insurance, Big Pharma and Big Health that EXCEEDS THE INCOME OF THE WORKING CLASS? Because we are soon going to find out...
You have the RIGHT to expect I don't break your nose, or your arm.
You do not have the "right" to confiscate any other person's income to pay for your health care--or the health care of any children you choose to create. Those people do not "owe" you anything.
The insurance system, and government assistance, both cause costs to skyrocket far past what they reasonably need to be--and this is why Obamacare can't work. You can't have a for-profit health care system and just say the taxpayer will pick up the tab for EVERYONE getting the best health care possible.
Take the case of Lasix surgery, which is not covered by insurance. It costs under $4,000 here in (very expensive) NH to get both eyes fixed to perfect vision, using the most technologically advanced method for a "worst case" scenario of thin corneas and very wide eye dilation--for a person who couldn't see a hand in front of the face since age 14 (my spouse).
But walk into the emergency room after breaking your upper arm (humerus), even when nothing is done but put the arm in a sling, and EVEN WITH INSURANCE, you'll still end up paying THOUSANDS out of pocket to the hospital, doctors and ambulance company (me). How much "health care" was really provided? One X-ray. This is what happens when we set up systems where either government or an insurer is involved in the process.
government is not the problem. The FOR PROFIT insurance companies are.
It is MY hope that Obamacare is just a stepping stone to free universal healthcare, with the for-profit insurance companies consigned to the dustbin of history as a rotten, heartless and awful idea.
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