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There is two ways to settle this: anecdotal or statistical / economic facts. Which one do you want to debate? Then we'll see which is the ignorant argument.
anecdotal- I've lived in the U.S and the UK. In the UK my health care is covered through taxes. I never got a bill. In the US even with insurance I was put into debt because of health care bills. I spent two nights in the hospital because of an infection and was left with a $4000 bill. That is with insurance. It is a SHOCKING system in the US. Not to mention how many people have died in the U.S because private insurance companies have denied care.
anecdotal- I've lived in the U.S and the UK. In the UK my health care is covered through taxes. I never got a bill. In the US even with insurance I was put into debt because of health care bills. I spent two nights in the hospital because of an infection and was left with a $4000 bill. That is with insurance. It is a SHOCKING system in the US. Not to mention how many people have died in the U.S because private insurance companies have denied care.
Anecdotal: my FIL was in UK when he had a complication with his ulcer. After not being able to wait, he was operated on and recovered in Cardiff.
Returned to US and we had him checked out. Our doctors were shocked at the poor quality of operation in Britain.
He died not long ago, and after unsuccessful attempts, too damage was done to an 80-year old man.
We learned that what was a complicated procedure in UK, was routine here in NY.
Statistical: go get educated and informed first on the many links that I provided earlier on this thread, for the predicaments European models are getting into. Rationing Health-care is one. Others are wait times to treat something more than a common cold.
British NHS is facing a huge budget deficit. Your high tax burden in UK might not be high enough, for a worsening system.
Socialism worked great in USSR for the first 50-60 years, then we know what happened ever-after. It got blown up.
Anecdotal: my FIL was in UK when he had a complication with his ulcer. After not being able to wait, he was operated on and recovered in Cardiff.
Returned to US and we had him checked out. Our doctors were shocked at the poor quality of operation in Britain.
He died not long ago, and after unsuccessful attempts, too damage was done to an 80-year old man.
We learned that what was a complicated procedure in UK, was routine here in NY.
Statistical: go get educated and informed first on the many links that I provided earlier on this thread, for the predicaments European models are getting into. Rationing Health-care is one. Others are wait times to treat something more than a common cold.
British NHS is facing a huge budget deficit. Your high tax burden in UK might not be high enough, for a worsening system.
Socialism worked great in USSR for the first 50-60 years, then we know what happened ever-after. It got blown up.
Sorry to hear about your family member. But for every horror story that happens in Britain there are hundreds that happen in the U.S. Botched operations happen in the U.S as well. In the U.S you have insurance companies denying coverage to people and these people end up dieing because of it. This is murder in my book.
With an aging population many countries are looking at future budget shortfalls when it comes to health care. This however, does not mean the system that these countries use to structure health care is flawed. It may mean a cut in unnecessary services such as pseudo-science like homeopathy. It may mean higher taxes on the wealthy.
It is the US system that is clearly flawed. There are examples after examples of shocking situations that people who are actually insured find themselves in. The US Health Care system is motivated by profit. If you're insured and end up in the hospital then you have dollar signs over your head. You're going to get great care but 50% of it will be totally unnecessary and is solely done for profit. A health care system that puts profits over people is IMMORAL.
Sorry to hear about your family member. But for every horror story that happens in Britain there are hundreds that happen in the U.S. Botched operations happen in the U.S as well. In the U.S you have insurance companies denying coverage to people and these people end up dieing because of it. This is murder in my book.
With an aging population many countries are looking at future budget shortfalls when it comes to health care. This however, does not mean the system that these countries use to structure health care is flawed. It may mean a cut in unnecessary services such as pseudo-science like homeopathy. It may mean higher taxes on the wealthy.
It is the US system that is clearly flawed. There are examples after examples of shocking situations that people who are actually insured find themselves in. The US Health Care system is motivated by profit. If you're insured and end up in the hospital then you have dollar signs over your head. You're going to get great care but 50% of it will be totally unnecessary and is solely done for profit. A health care system that puts profits over people is IMMORAL.
I am not going to repeat myself on the flaws of European models. I think I posted enough links here for an overview for you. And there are plenty more. Including malpractice.
On the US System. On a previous post I said pretty much the same thing -- costs are outrageous here. Yet, profit is a healthy engine for innovation when it is made in an environment of competition, and equally importantly, marketplace pressures. Especially when consumers, i.e. patients, can go find a better deal elsewhere.
It's the pressure that buyers apply, in a competitive setting, that results in lower prices, better service, and better products.
And that is sustainable, in long and short-term.
Adding another "entitlement" to an already overloaded wobbly horse-cart will be undone by the laws of math.
Sorry to hear about your family member. But for every horror story that happens in Britain there are hundreds that happen in the U.S. Botched operations happen in the U.S as well. In the U.S you have insurance companies denying coverage to people and these people end up dieing because of it. This is murder in my book.
With an aging population many countries are looking at future budget shortfalls when it comes to health care. This however, does not mean the system that these countries use to structure health care is flawed. It may mean a cut in unnecessary services such as pseudo-science like homeopathy. It may mean higher taxes on the wealthy.
It is the US system that is clearly flawed. There are examples after examples of shocking situations that people who are actually insured find themselves in. The US Health Care system is motivated by profit. If you're insured and end up in the hospital then you have dollar signs over your head. You're going to get great care but 50% of it will be totally unnecessary and is solely done for profit. A health care system that puts profits over people is IMMORAL.
If a health care system that puts profits over people is "IMMORAL" then what about the people who live their lives with complete disregard for the effects of their lifestyle choices on the remainder of society? There is nearly absolute silence on this, especially from those who think health care is a right.
If health care is a right, then before I pay one penny for YOUR health care you had better ask me if you can drink that alcohol beverage, put sugar in your coffee and you had better get up at dawn getting some exercise too. Personally, none of that is my business but when you start claiming a right for which other people are going to pay, then expect a lot more regulation to enter into your life.
"IMMORAL" is the fact that everyone has to pay for the lifestyle choices of drug addicts (they chose that life, rarely was it forced), people that stuff their faces and then claim obesity isn't their fault and so on.
Lifestyle choices account for much of the high costs of health care. What is broke is the ability to hold individuals responsible for their personal choices. The typical excuse is always "we're here no so lets move forward". Right, gloss over the real problems and just impose a solution that everyone has to pay for.
As for taxing the rich, that seems to be the typical answer to every problem. News flash, there aren't enough rich people to bilk so that all the idiots can make poor choices as long as they want with no consequences.
If a health care system that puts profits over people is "IMMORAL" then what about the people who live their lives with complete disregard for the effects of their lifestyle choices on the remainder of society? There is nearly absolute silence on this, especially from those who think health care is a right.
If health care is a right, then before I pay one penny for YOUR health care you had better ask me if you can drink that alcohol beverage, put sugar in your coffee and you had better get up at dawn getting some exercise too. Personally, none of that is my business but when you start claiming a right for which other people are going to pay, then expect a lot more regulation to enter into your life.
"IMMORAL" is the fact that everyone has to pay for the lifestyle choices of drug addicts (they chose that life, rarely was it forced), people that stuff their faces and then claim obesity isn't their fault and so on.
Lifestyle choices account for much of the high costs of health care. What is broke is the ability to hold individuals responsible for their personal choices. The typical excuse is always "we're here no so lets move forward". Right, gloss over the real problems and just impose a solution that everyone has to pay for.
As for taxing the rich, that seems to be the typical answer to every problem. News flash, there aren't enough rich people to bilk so that all the idiots can make poor choices as long as they want with no consequences.
Excellent post. For the "progressives" (read true Leninists) healthcare, just like environment, welfare, etc are simply vehicles to establish their single-party dictatorial system. The gullible fall for the well-oiled propaganda "for the sake of the people." It's just plain old, failed, tyrannical system, dressed in new clothing. They sell the same-old same-old 5000 year old system of tyranny of the few over the vast majority, by distributing freebies in exchange for liberty, crushing the opponents, and gagging (Political Correctness) the rest.
Excellent post. For the "progressives" (read true Leninists) healthcare, just like environment, welfare, etc are simply vehicles to establish their single-party dictatorial system. The gullible fall for the well-oiled propaganda "for the sake of the people." It's just plain old, failed, tyrannical system, dressed in new clothing. They sell the same-old same-old 5000 year old system of tyranny of the few over the vast majority, by distributing freebies in exchange for liberty, crushing the opponents, and gagging (Political Correctness) the rest.
Its a post which fails to acknowledge the truth about health care. Yes, there are people who make poor lifestyle choices that end up costing the system money. However, every single person is going to get old and eventually require some health care even if they abstain from cigarettes, alcohol, illegal drugs, and exercise for an hour every day.
My mother might be a good case in good point. She's lead a healthy life and, as a result, is still alive at 94. The only problem is she needs frequent trips to the ER because her intestines block with some frequency. Her lifestyle choices have nothing to do with this at all. In fact, you can argue that healthy people may ultimately require the most health care of all because they will live to the oldest ages and will need support for a body that is slowly failing this whole time.
On another note, while your preaching to us about "tyranny" and "socialism", let me ask you a question:
Do you think labeling something "socialist" is in and of itself an argument against it? If so, we better get rid of the police department, the fire department, and even the best public schools. Maybe we could outsource our need for a military to a company like "Black Water".
Labels mean nothing to me at all. What most of us in this country want is something that works. If you want to make an argument that ACA "won't work" or that the health care systems in other countries don't work either than by all means go ahead and do it. Don't be juvenile enough to think that you made an argument against something though by labeling "socialist" or some other "ism".
Its a post which fails to acknowledge the truth about health care. Yes, there are people who make poor lifestyle choices that end up costing the system money. However, every single person is going to get old and eventually require some health care even if they abstain from cigarettes, alcohol, illegal drugs, and exercise for an hour every day.
My mother might be a good case in good point. She's lead a healthy life and, as a result, is still alive at 94. The only problem is she needs frequent trips to the ER because her intestines block with some frequency. Her lifestyle choices have nothing to do with this at all. In fact, you can argue that healthy people may ultimately require the most health care of all because they will live to the oldest ages and will need support for a body that is slowly failing this whole time.
It was clear that commenter's post was about able-bodied adults, not the disabled, kids, or seniors. You're grasping at the straws, it sounds.
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359
On another note, while your preaching to us about "tyranny" and "socialism", let me ask you a question:
Do you think labeling something "socialist" is in and of itself an argument against it? If so, we better get rid of the police department, the fire department, and even the best public schools. Maybe we could outsource our need for a military to a company like "Black Water".
Labels mean nothing to me at all. What most of us in this country want is something that works. If you want to make an argument that ACA "won't work" or that the health care systems in other countries don't work either than by all means go ahead and do it. Don't be juvenile enough to think that you made an argument against something though by labeling "socialist" or some other "ism".
Socialism has really nothing to do with PD, FD or public schools. For my generation, and my friends, overthrowing Socialism wasn't juvenile. It was done by force. Students hung Dear-Leader Ceausescu, who sent tanks to crush them, and killing many, including my High-school buddy.
They indoctrinated my generation with Marxism-Leninism since 10 years old. I am talking about Historical Materialism, Dialiectics, Class Struggle, Proletariat's Dictatorship, Base and Superstructure, etc. etc. These were core-curriculum since 5th grade. By 16-year old I had read Das Kapital cover-to-cover.
What you say and how you think sound awfully familiar to those commissars we hated in our youth. Nothing juvenile about that. That's a hard, cruel, but real life, that I had the fortune and misfortune to live.
It was clear that commenter's post was about able-bodied adults, not the disabled, kids, or seniors. You're grasping at the straws, it sounds.
Socialism has really nothing to do with PD, FD or public schools. For my generation, and my friends, overthrowing Socialism wasn't juvenile. It was done by force. Students hung Dear-Leader Ceausescu, who sent tanks to crush them, and killing many, including my High-school buddy.
They indoctrinated my generation with Marxism-Leninism since 10 years old. I am talking about Historical Materialism, Dialiectics, Class Struggle, Proletariat's Dictatorship, Base and Superstructure, etc. etc. These were core-curriculum since 5th grade. By 16-year old I had read Das Kapital cover-to-cover.
What you say and how you think sound awfully familiar to those commissars we hated in our youth. Nothing juvenile about that. That's a hard, cruel, but real life, that I had the fortune and misfortune to live.
I'm sorry that the people in Eastern Europe had to live under Communism.
That being said, I think analogizing that experience to present day life in America simply borders on the absurd. For starters, we elect our own government in this country. Additionally, the Russians aren't going to send in the tanks, when we protest in the streets.
I sometimes listen to immigrants to this country try and talk about politics. Occasionally, I'll hear something impressive. However, too often they take their own experiences in their homeland and assume America is the same way. Its not and all your rambling about "socialism" isn't going to make it that way.
I'm sorry that the people in Eastern Europe had to live under Communism.
That being said, I think analogizing that experience to present day life in America simply borders on the absurd. For starters, we elect our own government in this country. Additionally, the Russians aren't going to send in the tanks, when we protest in the streets.
I sometimes listen to immigrants to this country try and talk about politics. Occasionally, I'll hear something impressive. However, too often they take their own experiences in their homeland and assume America is the same way. Its not and all your rambling about "socialism" isn't going to make it that way.
That's delusional thinking. Surely we have a different system of Government, and the reason we do is because the choices we made long ago.
But if we make the same choices as other countries did, why would we expect different results? Incremental changes through decades transform a country the same way as a one-time revolutionary event. History is pretty consistent.
As I told you earlier, if you think like a socialist, if you act like a socialist, you are a socialist. Why deny who you are?
We are veering off our Constitutional framework. Our Govt was never intended to be the answer to all ills. It was intended to be limited and with specific and enumerated powers.
To talk about "healthcare is a right", it really means we now want the Federal Govt to do it, which was never the intent.
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