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It is not about a "Military Draft".... This is about "Civic Services Corp". with specific Civic Related Duties, Non- Military.
I do like the idea of reviewing the mandated time. At least 1yr, but if and as noted, those who do 4 yrs, would get the equivalent of a Master Degree Certificate upon completion of 4 yrs.
Part of the objective is to have a trained and educated society who can perform skillfully technical and vocational skills. There is no other way, we will get a full society of educated young people.
But you have no problems using service members as example to justify civic services corps on post 23 and 32 no?
Anyway, National service, the whole idea is most popular among people who are a bit nostalgic for the good old days.
If young people (people my age) decided to spend their year in national service in the military, they would soon find that they would either be assigned the menial tasks or otherwise spend the majority of their year in the service in training for a military occupational specialty which they would be unlikely to ever put to use.
Example: my brother's MOS in the Marine Corps is 0321 (Reconnaissance Man) (one of his MOS), he is a very successful business owner and an industrial designer. Military service is 100% positive experience for him because he volunteered to serve, however, in term of job skills for the future, military service is really that useless.
It is likely that the same would be true of other programs which would be under pressure to process students through quickly. And many young people would have difficulty adapting.
Draftees tend to be a disciplinary problem historically because they freaking don't want to be be there. So they act out. (Of course there will always be exception to the rule) Let's face it, there is a poster who said draft will attract the brightest It is laughable because draftees tend to fill up the low end of the skills department.
I understand that National Service does not just mean military service. I support bringing back the draft but it is far too expensive in this day and age. As for other forms of national service, I don't see it as the best move for our nation. We need a strong young workforce in the economy, not out tromping around the forest or painting over graffiti in some urban jungle.
The human side of me and common sense both tell me that being forced to serve your country hasn't made anybody patriotic, its made people a bit resentful.
In theory, mandatory civic service corps sound interesting, in practice, I believe it would just be another one or two years of public school. no we don't need it.
Last edited by Oldhag1; 04-21-2014 at 02:16 PM..
Reason: Fixed quote formatting
But you have no problems using service members as example to justify civic services corps on post 23 and 32 no?
Anyway, National service, the whole idea is most popular among people who are a bit nostalgic for the good old days.
If young people (people my age) decided to spend their year in national service in the military, they would soon find that they would either be assigned the menial tasks or otherwise spend the majority of their year in the service in training for a military occupational specialty which they would be unlikely to ever put to use.
Example: my brother's MOS in the Marine Corps is 0321 (Reconnaissance Man) (one of his MOS), he is a very successful business owner and an industrial designer. Military service is 100% positive experience for him because he volunteered to serve, however, in term of job skills for the future, military service is really that useless.
It is likely that the same would be true of other programs which would be under pressure to process students through quickly. And many young people would have difficulty adapting.
Draftees tend to be a disciplinary problem historically because they freaking don't want to be be there. So they act out. (Of course there will always be exception to the rule) Let's face it, there is a poster who said draft will attract the brightest It is laughable because draftees tend to fill up the low end of the skills department.
I understand that National Service does not just mean military service. I support bringing back the draft but it is far too expensive in this day and age. As for other forms of national service, I don't see it as the best move for our nation. We need a strong young workforce in the economy, not out tromping around the forest or painting over graffiti in some urban jungle.
The human side of me and common sense both tell me that being forced to serve your country hasn't made anybody patriotic, its made people a bit resentful.
In theory, mandatory civic service corps sound interesting, in practice, I believe it would just be another one or two years of public school. no we don't need it.
Military service is not all about getting a marketable skill. Different branch's offer completely different things. If one's goal is to get a skill that is directly transferable to the civilian world, most would choose a technical MOS or Branch. IMHO the Air Force and the Navy are the mostly likely branch's to have a directly exportable skill training. That said the one thing all branch's teach is team work, team building, understanding people and personalities, dependence upon one another etc. I can almost guarantee you your brother uses things he learned in the service to make his business a success....
Last edited by Oldhag1; 04-21-2014 at 02:17 PM..
Reason: Red font is reserved for moderation
Military service is not all about getting a marketable skill. Different branch's offer completely different things. If one's goal is to get a skill that is directly transferable to the civilian world, most would choose a technical MOS or Branch. IMHO the Air Force and the Navy are the mostly likely branch's to have a directly exportable skill training. That said the one thing all branch's teach is team work, team building, understanding people and personalities, dependence upon one another etc. I can almost guarantee you your brother uses things he learned in the service to make his business a success....
I am sorry but i think you missed my point. You don't have to guarantee me anything. I am very PRO military and have a forever love for Marine Corps. I pretty much grew up with the Marines. Yes he definitely used what he has learned to make his business a success.
This is not the point I was trying to make.
The point I was trying to make is that draft is not the best for our nation and I explained why. My brother's military service is a success for him because he VOLUNTEERED. He wanted to be there. This is the whole point.
I am sorry but i think you missed my point. You don't have to guarantee me anything. I am very PRO military and have a forever love for Marine Corps. I pretty much grew up with the Marines. Yes he definitely used what he has learned to make his business a success.
This is not the point I was trying to make.
The point I was trying to make is that draft is not the best for our nation and I explained why. My brother's military service is a success for him because he VOLUNTEERED. He wanted to be there. This is the whole point.
Ok I understand! Yes, I would tend to agree.
I think the nominal success seen in the prewar national labor programs were only because there were no national safety nets that would provide for people who could not find work. If people were hungry enough they would be will to build anything......
It not so much about a degree from the Corps. But I do think they should get training and some type of certificate which has some value to denote skill development achievement. Now that value could be equal to an AA, BA, BS or it could simply count as credit units, they can use to further their learning.
I think many are missing the point, We have far too many young people with no direction and no vision of a direction, we have a vast expanse of wandering youth. We have within that as within life, those who will make the best of it and those who will not. But one thing is sure, we will have people who will gain from it something in the over-all.
As my54ford said: at the very least they will gain: what the Corp teach as being - team work, team building, understanding people and personalities, dependence upon one another etc. but they will get skill training.
I think people are too worried about how to pay for it, when we already spend the money it would take to pay them, we would simply be re-directing funds to a more functional beneficial usage, and still get the services we would otherwise pay to private contractors who always 'over bill", extend and push every cost over-run they can imagine up. We give money to disaster situations, we give money to fire damage and every other disaster.
We don't even know the value of property once the blight is removed.
It appears too many people are too worried about someone else gaining any benefit or assistance, for what they give and do.
As to discipline, the corps just like the Military, have ways of managing crime and people who do wrong things, but we also have to have faith in people to do the right thing once given opportunity. This is when and where people can be amazingly surprising.
I think the idle mind and idle hands is more of a problem, than the good a Corp can do to give people something to identify with, give them a field of focus and some task within that field where they can contribute and learn, learn and contribute.
China is far smarter than us in these regards. They enlist many in their army because they know it is better for the young men and women to be a part of something, to identify with something and be within an organization where they can gain a sense of value within self and civic responsibility.
American's have this grand delusion that freedom, means do anything you want, anytime you want, any way you want. And fact is, that is a delusion which is not realism. Freedom is always a responsibility and it is connected to one being responsible unto something.
Not one person in American can do anything they want, anytime they want to do it, any way they want to do it.
That's why we have laws and governing regulations to support what is a civil system of society.
There are rules and guidelines in everything within this country.
Go to the beach topless if you are a woman, or if you are a man, go squirrel hunting in a city park and see how free you are to do so. yes, those are extreme example, but to the wise they get the point across.
Some people smoke marijuana, but go and grow it and try smoking it in public. go and plant some coca for making cocaine and see where you end up. Get your mate and go to the park and assume you will throw down a blanket and have sex, and see where you end up.
We live in a society which is "GOVERNED" and if it was not, we'd not like it one bit. people already complain about what others do, even when they do things which is within the law and within the guidelines that exist.
We have people today more worried about whom another is sleeping with, when it has nothing to do with them. We have people who want to regulate others, but want no one or nothing to regulate them.
Thankfully, we live in a GOVERNED SYSTEM".. with rules, regulations and guidelines about how to do things, and then we have processes in place if one choose to do various things.
I don't know why and where people get this delusion about some 'wild like concept of freedom".. heck you are not free to buy what ever you want. You can buy what is regulated and governed in a system to be sold. and some things you will only be able to buy within certain hours.
As to freedom of speech, get on twitter and some of those site and say anything you can think, and see what might result. we have liable laws, we have laws against defamation and various other speech control regulatory guidelines we must adhere unto. people even have to be a certain age to consent to engage in sex, even it if its their own body and they make a conscience choice to want to engage sex.
Long ago it was against the law for sodomy, but today because of the homosexual positions, now it is no longer pursued as being an unlawful act.
So people may do themselves a favor and come off of wanting to shrink the government and do away with regulations and guidelines. It is never going to go away in a system of society which expects to have a level of civility.
Heck, this site has moderators, who pick and choose what people can say and talk about and where and when they can say and talk about it. and they will gladly state the rules, regulations and guidelines when they want to censor something.
Therefore, having a Civil Corp is a functional thing, which helps people learn to live and function within a civil society, as well as to develop skills and capabilities to be long term contributors during the course of their living. and it helps them develop a broader sense of responsibility, which is the pathway to having accessibility to take beneficial advantage of the freedoms which we do have.
So to those so quick to claim it takes some freedom from the youth, do not look the the long term of the freedoms they gain and the ability they gain to engage the beneficial usage and advantage of those freedoms.
You can go and buy a car, but if you can't afford to put insurance and register it, you can't drive it on public roads. Yet you own it, so if everything is so free, then go get in it and drive and don't register it, don't get a driver license and don't buy insurance and see how free you are to use it.
Last edited by Oldhag1; 04-21-2014 at 07:35 PM..
Reason: Removed hyperlink to forum member's profile.
But you have no problems using service members as example to justify civic services corps on post 23 and 32 no?
I have no problem with the comparative example for the sake of making a point. but it still does not mean, that I think the Corp should be or have anything to do with Military function.
But, I am not against the Military developing a Civil Corp which has specific and generally predominant Civil Roles and duties.
Yet, the Corp I am and have been discussing is not structured for any "military function". I made that clear in the beginning of the proposition of a "Civil Corp" and I suggested that it be organized possibly under the 'Department of Interior" as a specifically Civil Corp for Civic duties and Civic roles as specifically Civic functions.
Last edited by Oldhag1; 04-21-2014 at 07:37 PM..
Reason: Fixed formatting
We give Israel billions of dollars every year. young men and young women in their country when they turn 18 has to serve.
How do we know that money does not go to pay for them to do so? Directly or Indirectly it is the same money.
many other countries we support in various ways also have such. Yet, we give them money, as well as we provide them many other things.
yet, we cry loudly, when it comes to finding money to pay Americans. It's almost absurd to whine about 'how are we going to pay Americans, with America's money. but we don't say a word about the money we give away to many countries.
and then we even send Americans to fight in battles they generate in their countries. we send those who enlist and those who volunteer.
Yet, we have a problem with creating a Civic Corp for Americans to do things which benefit themselves and America, within America.
No wonder we are a declining country, we defeat ourselves, we did it with giving away our industry, and we do it with putting our youth in positions to languish in idleness, unless they are lucky enough to get a grant or a loan for training and skill development.
Although High School is very necessary in point and fact, Yet, w e don't prepare them for anything with High School, because if we did, they'd be able to get a decent job with a high school diploma. High School now only prepares them for more school.. IF THEY CAN AFFORD IT. Otherwise they are left in a bad way and bad situation.
Last edited by Oldhag1; 04-21-2014 at 07:39 PM..
Reason: Blue font should be hyperlinks, red fonts are ONLY for moderation.
We give Israel billions of dollars every year. young men and young women in their country when they turn 18 has to serve.
How do we know that money does not go to pay for them to do so? Directly or Indirectly it is the same money.
We don't actually give them money. Nearly 90% of the "foreign aid" we give to other countries is military aid. Essentially, the US government purchases military equipment and gives that equipment to those countries. That's a two-fer that both feeds the US military industry and props up foreign government friendly to the US.
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We don't prepare them for anything with High School, because if we did, they'd be able to get a job with a high school diploma. School now only prepares them for more school.. IF THEY CAN AFFORD IT. Otherwise they are left in a bad way and bad situation.
So why not fix high school? Why waste year of a young person's time and then waste four more years and billions of dollars doing what should have been done in high school?
If some kind of government program would work later, why not just do the same thing earlier...the US is already spending about $5,000 per year per student while he is in high school.
Last edited by Oldhag1; 04-21-2014 at 07:40 PM..
Reason: Quote formatting
A better alternative IMO would be to just make having a 10hr a week job as required during high school junior and senior year. Carry this over to college, where federal funding is only applied with the 10hr job. Would the education process take longer? Yes. But students would learn more, because there is only so much you can learn in a week and spreading the education process over a longer time would allow for more time to learn and less academic burnout. Plus all graduates would then have experience.
I think government employment of recent HS grads is an expensive alternative to the above.
I say, no because many don't have direction because they are corralled into college for four years, the military or straight into the workforce without much guidance. There is a LOT of high school grads that change majors because no one tells them how job outlooks look after graduation and how "tough" courses are. I don't see mandated service (at home or abroad) being too much good because too many people are apathetic to the military in my age group. I am in support of them, I just never really wanted to be in the military.
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But you have no problems using service members as example to justify civic services corps on post 23 and 32 no? 
It is laughable because draftees tend to fill up the low end of the skills department.
