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So? Why is that our problem? What right or obligation does the U.S have to govern some other country?
Let them be poor third world countries.
Because the West is shoveling a huge amount of aid to the Fourth World indirectly through the U.N. and its multilateral agencies. Almost all of it is being wasted. Either its being siphoned off to Swiss bank accounts or being used for warfare.
Additionally every now and then we have to get involved directly with our military.
Most of these countries are not in the same position that the U.S. was in during 1783 to really make a go of it. Independence has been an expensive and at times deadly charade.
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Originally Posted by Spatula City
How convenient that the people who responded to those polls never actually lived under colonial rule. Living in miserable circumstances tends to make people desperate for a solution.
I don't think that we should bring back colonialism but taking an active interest in actually repairing the damage done by colonialism sounds good to me. Of course, it would take a lot more money than anyone is willing to give up.
I would be in favor if the colonial subjects were not allowed to receive welfare benefits from the mother country even if they moved there. Otherwise it is too simple to just become a colonized nation for the easy cash.
Unfortunately, it will take 100s of years for many of the problems in these countries to work themselves out. Britain was a Roman colony for 400 years. When the Romans pulled out, did Britain keep rolling along at the same level? Hardly! It took 1000 years before civilization in Britain equaled, and then surpassed that of ancient Rome. Ethnic conflict roils many third world countries. Will the populations eventually blend to a point where these conflicts will fade away, eliminating a major factor in their struggles. I don't know. Even in civilized Europe, ethnic tensions bubble beneath the surface in many areas. These exploded into genocide in the Balkans when Yugoslavia fell apart, and ethnic tensions played a role in the two World Wars, where despite all of the culture and education of the first world, these countries displayed a level of savagery that seemed to indicate that we haven't risen very far at all from our ancient roots. Iraq was civilized at a time when most of Europe was in the stone age, full of hunter-gatherer populations. Despite all of that history, barbarism is the order of the day there now.
????!!!! You realize plenty of third world countries have issues BECAUSE of the legacy of western colonization. We pillaged these regions for many generations (and still do, to an extent) and then simply drew B.S. borders for these countries when we left, without any real consideration or understanding of the culture clash we were setting up. These impoverished countries dealing with civil wars, dictatorships, military regimes were primed and ready to go BECAUSE of western colonization. The idea that repeating the past will fix the issues is really absurd.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spatula City
How convenient that the people who responded to those polls never actually lived under colonial rule. Living in miserable circumstances tends to make people desperate for a solution.
I don't think that we should bring back colonialism but taking an active interest in actually repairing the damage done by colonialism sounds good to me. Of course, it would take a lot more money than anyone is willing to give up.
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Originally Posted by ElectronicOverlord
Memo to Former Colonies:
Y'all can rule yourselves now. Just remember that BP still has a contract to handle the oil, and DeBeers still handles the diamonds. And don't dare nationalize them - the international finance community will shun you (and good luck making refineries as good as ours).
So... well, good luck making money. We can send you aid money... just watch out for corrupt politicians, which is characteristic of Africa and in no way happens anywhere else.
These countries were impoverished long before colonialism. Slavery, hunger and squalor were their lot and is becoming it again. Rwanda and Congo were the bloodies place on Earth until overtaken by Nigeria, Syria and Iraq. Haiti, after two hundred years of self rule, is the crime capitol of the world and living standards are among the lowest anywhere. A hundred miles from America and it can't even figure out how to make itself rich through tourism! (Which the Dominican Republic is finally doing. And Cuba will do.)
These places werent "countries." Africa was a series of empires and nomadic societies. Look up the ghana, songhay, mali empires as well as numerous ethiopian and egyptian societies if you feel im making any of this up. Look up king mansa musa. he makes Donald trump look like a welfare leech. the caribbean was where indigenous (primarily Taino, Arawak and Carib peoples) resided. their societies may have had conflicts but it was a disney movie compared to what happened when the "civilized" europeans showed up.
Haiti became the way it did BECAUSE france brought slavery there and then financially has had the place by genitals ever since. Haiti was one of France's main cash crops, and even long after Haiti went independent imperial powers (esp France and the US) sucked the country dry. The political corruption and violence is a result of the elite doing the bidding of the imperial powers long as they get their cut.
DR has rampant problems for similar reasons. Cuba was an imperialist playground until Fidel Castro kicked em out. Whether castros regime was better is up for debate but ive heard the people of cuba who are old enough to remember the batista era would not wanna see those days return. Esp considering theyve trained some of the worlds best doctors on his watch and have achieved nearly a 100% literacy rate.
Quote:
The resentment and ingratitude of colonized peoples has long been known:
Take up the White Man's burden,
and reap his old reward.
The scorn or those ye better,
the hate of those ye guard.
The cry of those ye humor,
Ah! slowly toward the light.
"Why bring ye us from bondage,
our loved Egyptian night?"
Who said these people wanted these colonial imperial powers on their land and in their business to begin with?
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It doesn't alter the fact that it was the colonial powers, especially the English, who brought these countries their first and only experiences with the rule of law, fair administration, and material progress. Even great civilizations, India for example, were beset by tyranny, banditry, and misrule until England took over. The prosperity and stability of Singapore are not native plants. Likewise, Indonesia is not flourishing because of its indigenous culture.
the imperialist powers themselves havent quite mastered or regularly practiced rule of law and fair administration in their own societies, let alone the ones they colonized (which is probably one major reason why they went independent in the first place). The material progress they have had is largely due to exploiting the lands and enslaving the people of these "uncivilized" areas. Furthermore, many african societies as well as various middle eastern and asian societies and empires had rule of law administration and organization back when europeans were still living in caves so I dont see how the europeans were introducing a new and pioneering concept.
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The only, best hope for virtually all North African and middle-eastern countries is for their former European rulers to reassert control over them, disarm them, and keep a close eye on them. Otherwise, the killing, violence and pillage that ruled them since time began will have its way with them forever.
Its been highly proven once europeans get involved instability, exploitation and war is oftentime a result. If these people are going to learn to be "civilized" they darn sure aint gonna learn from a people (Europeans) that have a long and well documented history of theft, exploitation, starting wars, propoganda, perverting and twisting religion for its own selfish purposes .......
I would be in favor if the colonial subjects were not allowed to receive welfare benefits from the mother country even if they moved there. Otherwise it is too simple to just become a colonized nation for the easy cash.
Details would be arranged by the countries involved, so you could get your wish.
What exactly is in it for the colonizer? A convenient summer vacation spot?
You seem to be an advocate of colonization for the sake of charity.
Good question. Either farm land or mineral resources I would suppose.
It isn't like the locals amount to all that much in the economic balance sheet.
Generally, I'd say you always end up with one of those paradoxes that makes groups of humans different than game theory. Even if you can overcome all of the innate need to form up groups based on appearance and/or a strong culture, it's hard to convince people that the colonized country is better off if nearly everybody has $100 and one person has $1000 vs everybody having $25.
These countries were impoverished long before colonialism. Slavery, hunger and squalor were their lot and is becoming it again. Rwanda and Congo were the bloodies place on Earth until overtaken by Nigeria, Syria and Iraq. Haiti, after two hundred years of self rule, is the crime capitol of the world and living standards are among the lowest anywhere. A hundred miles from America and it can't even figure out how to make itself rich through tourism! (Which the Dominican Republic is finally doing. And Cuba will do.)
The resentment and ingratitude of colonized peoples has long been known:
Take up the White Man's burden,
and reap his old reward.
The scorn or those ye better,
the hate of those ye guard.
The cry of those ye humor,
Ah! slowly toward the light.
"Why bring ye us from bondage,
our loved Egyptian night?"
It doesn't alter the fact that it was the colonial powers, especially the English, who brought these countries their first and only experiences with the rule of law, fair administration, and material progress. Even great civilizations, India for example, were beset by tyranny, banditry, and misrule until England took over. The prosperity and stability of Singapore are not native plants. Likewise, Indonesia is not flourishing because of its indigenous culture.
The only, best hope for virtually all North African and middle-eastern countries is for their former European rulers to reassert control over them, disarm them, and keep a close eye on them. Otherwise, the killing, violence and pillage that ruled them since time began will have its way with them forever.
My parents and grandparents lived under British colonial rule in Singapore.
Do you know what it was like if you were non-white under European colonial rule?
My father grew up, like nearly everyone else, without public healthcare, without public education, without access to toilets.
Throughout his entire years from birth till his mid-twenties, he lived in a attap house that has completely no electricity, no running water, no toilets at all. For lighting at night, they had to use kerosene lamps.
For water, every morning, all the villagers had to draw water from the village well by trudging a few kilometers to a village well that the villagers dug out on their own.
Public healthcare? You had to go to a local healer; good luck getting the doctors and the nurses in the colonial hospitals to treat you.
Public education? my grandparents grew up illiterate under British rule; my father was placed in a school run by the local community, a school that didn't even get a inch of support from the British.
Meanwhile, about 10 kilometers away from the village, Europeans were living in well-appointed luxurious colonial bungalows. The only people whom had access to electricity and running water were either white or the rare few local wealthy trading families but nearly 80% - 85% of the population were living in slums with zero access to toilets, electricity, or running water.
This situation lasted till the early 1960s.
They even got away with murder.
Once, in my father's village, a local village boy was hit and killed by an automobile driven by a British.
what was the result? No charges, no arrest, not even an investigation.
Where was the famed European rule of law?
Rule of law, fair administration, and material progress? That only applied if you were white.
The common's people standards of living only improved after independence. under European rule, prosperity depended on your skin colour.
Today, the common people in Singapore have access to public healthcare, public education and public housing; the first time my father had genuine access to electricity and running water was after independence, not before.
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