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The Hep B series takes 6 months to complete. As a long time pediatric nurse, now retired, I cannot tell you how many parents of newborns I've seen who said they had no plans to go back to work, only to come in at 2 months (or sooner) with a daycare form to be filled out. "The best laid plans" as they say. Layoffs happen. Divorce happens. Lots of things happen.
Now, see this is not factual. When you say the Hep B series takes six months to complete, that first shot is not part of the series. It confers no long term immunity because newborns' immune systems are so immature. The only thing it does it protect that baby from a Hep B positive mother. Go and look up the actual data, or if you're not feeling like it, compare the child vaccine schedules with the catchup ones.
I'm glad for your patients that they had windfalls that allowed them to go back to work, but that argument is up there with starting a newborn on formula just in case you die. (and yes, I have seen this suggested). If you decide to put the baby in care in those few weeks between birth and the first vaccines, then you can give them the vaccine. It's not hard to get.
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I'm not sure what you think is misleading. I put that stat in there about adults and chickenpox to show that adult deaths do happen, and that the information that adults get sicker than kids with chickenpox is true. Prior to the vaccine, virtually all children got chickenpox, meaning about 3 million cases a year in the US. About 50 died. Only a few adults got it every year, as most had it as kids. Yet still about 50 died, a much higher death rate. The point is that a child in this day and age may never get exposed to wild chickenpox, and become an adult without any immunity. That's the parents' fault. There was a young woman who worked at our front desk who was the "victim" of such a parental decision. Every time a kid came in with suspected chickenpox, she had to leave the area. Of course, that didn't protect her against a kid who came in with "rash" and the rash turned out to be chickenpox. Now granted, her problem could have been solved by her getting vaccinated. But you see the point. Once a person is of age to consent, they can make their own decision. But, as human nature goes, it's easy to put off unpleasant stuff like getting a shot, though as shots go, this one isn't bad. So then maybe you're exposed to someone with shingles and "bingo". What if you're planning to wait till age 4 or 5 and in the meantime Grandma comes down with shingles and exposes your child to the chickenpox virus?
I was objecting to your ignoring the differences between vaccines. It is extremely counterproductive to give people even vaguest hint of an impression that say, the flu vax and the Hib vax are the same. Have you heard how Hib used to be? In fact, as a peds nurse, maybe you had a patient die of it? It is a hideous disease, with a super effective vaccine. Flu, on the other hand, is a disease that can be awful, is dangerous for certain populations, and has a very ineffective vaccine. People know that about the flu, they don't know that about Hib. When you say they're just as important as each other, they think Hib is like the flu. Same goes for chicken pox and the measles.
And FYI, if an unvaccinated person is exposed to shingles, they can just get the vaccine. If you google "post exposure prophylaxis" it should explain it.
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Actually, more people are hospitalized with the flu, and die from it, than Hib meningitis. I don't have some list of vaccines in order of priority. I think it's important to get all of them, on time.
This is exactly the problem.
I think you need to go and read up on Hib if you think the flu is a worse disease. Or, indeed, almost any other vaccine preventible disease. Also, please do some reading about relative risks for different populations and how it compares to absolute risk. Look at the comparison between an elderly diabetic asthmatic and the flu vs a healthy 12 year old with the flu and a healthy child with Hib. You're making the same error the anti vaxxers do when they say that most vistims in an outbreak are vaxxed.
Ask your doctor point blank if they receive a spiff on the vaccines they sell? I think it's a bad idea to pay doctors by the injection.
I can tell you the answer to that. No.
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Originally Posted by WildColonialGirl
Now, see this is not factual. When you say the Hep B series takes six months to complete, that first shot is not part of the series. It confers no long term immunity because newborns' immune systems are so immature. The only thing it does it protect that baby from a Hep B positive mother. Go and look up the actual data, or if you're not feeling like it, compare the child vaccine schedules with the catchup ones.
I'm glad for your patients that they had windfalls that allowed them to go back to work, but that argument is up there with starting a newborn on formula just in case you die. (and yes, I have seen this suggested). If you decide to put the baby in care in those few weeks between birth and the first vaccines, then you can give them the vaccine. It's not hard to get.
I was objecting to your ignoring the differences between vaccines. It is extremely counterproductive to give people even vaguest hint of an impression that say, the flu vax and the Hib vax are the same. Have you heard how Hib used to be? In fact, as a peds nurse, maybe you had a patient die of it? It is a hideous disease, with a super effective vaccine. Flu, on the other hand, is a disease that can be awful, is dangerous for certain populations, and has a very ineffective vaccine. People know that about the flu, they don't know that about Hib. When you say they're just as important as each other, they think Hib is like the flu. Same goes for chicken pox and the measles.
And FYI, if an unvaccinated person is exposed to shingles, they can just get the vaccine. If you google "post exposure prophylaxis" it should explain it.
This is exactly the problem.
I think you need to go and read up on Hib if you think the flu is a worse disease. Or, indeed, almost any other vaccine preventible disease. Also, please do some reading about relative risks for different populations and how it compares to absolute risk. Look at the comparison between an elderly diabetic asthmatic and the flu vs a healthy 12 year old with the flu and a healthy child with Hib. You're making the same error the anti vaxxers do when they say that most vistims in an outbreak are vaxxed.
Of course the first shot is part of the series! It's a series of 3. Yes, the first doesn't give much immunity. Neither does the second. It's only after you've received all three that you have your long term immunity. Your understanding of the action of the vaccine is incorrect. The spacing of the shots is exactly the same in the catch up schedule. There is an exception for kids ages 11-15, using a different vaccine. "Catch-up vaccination: Unvaccinated persons should complete a 3-dose series.
A 2-dose series (doses separated by at least 4 months) of adult formulation Recombivax HB is licensed for use in children aged 11 through 15 years." Catch-up Immunization Schedule | CDC
You're glad that someone got laid off or divorced? That's a new one! Your argument about formula makes no sense, has nothing to do with vaccines. It takes six months from start to finish for the Hep B series except as discussed above.
In 2007, the last year for which I could find statistics, there were 10 Hib deaths, and that was a big year. The previous year, there were 4. There have never been more than 17 since 1991, when universal Hib immunization was introduced in the US. We do not "rate" vaccines. We feel they are all important.
How can there be an epidemic outbreak of "horribly crippling, deadly diseases" if the other kids are all vaccinated?
The more important question is if vaccines are so safe, why did Big Pharma spend millions lobbying congress to get a law passed making them exempt from lawsuits by family's devastated by their vaccines?
Then there's the vaccines that you don't actually need. Last time I went to the doctor and we talked about vaccines, she asked me which I wanted and I said as few as necessary. With each vaccine I asked what it was, if I could live without it and what was actually in it. With Tetanus she said "since you've already had the tetanus shot, you don't actually need this, but we like to give it to people anyhow. If you step on a rusty nail or start getting tetanus, you could just come in and get the vaccine after-the-fact.". Why on earth would you pump that into yourself or your child if it's not even necessary? Remember the big Disney measles hysteria last year? How many Americans died from that? Not one. The US in fact had one measles death in the past 12 years and that of course was someone who didn't have the vaccine. People were losing their minds. Go back and read the C-D archives. They wanted the kids kicked out of schools, banned from all public buildings and spaces. Ostracized. Shunned. They were hysterical. How about the flu vaccine? Unless you're sick or have compromised immune system there's no need for that shot either. HPV? Remember when Rick Perry down in Texas tried to mandate that every 13 y/o girl in the state must have that vaccine? He gave that contract exclusively to Merck. Turned out Perry's #1 campaign contributor was Merck. Go figure. Then it turned out his Super Pac Manager and long time assistant was also a Merck rep. If the science is so strong, why do they have to stoop to that level to force it on those girls?
I actually consider myself a moderate on the subject. I take most vaccines and will let my kids take most. What I won't do is blindly trust science paid for by giant pharma corporations or mock/label those who're skeptical of vaccines.
There will not be epidemics of the diseases that vaccines prevent if most people are vaccinated against them. That's what herd immunity does. When the number of people who are vaccinated falls, the risk of a small number of cases becoming a large outbreak gets larger. That is what happened with whooping cough and measles.
Unvaccinated kids are sent home from school if they are exposed to measles because the risk they will get the disease is high. If there are enough unvaccinated kids, the whole school gets closed. It would be idiotic not to do so.
Perfectly healthy people die from flu every year. In 2013, 90% of the children who died from flu were unvaccinated and 40% of those who died were otherwise healthy. Pregnant women who get it are more likely to be seriously ill and die from it than nonpregnant women and may miscarry or go into premature labor.
With tetanus you will not spread it to other people, but the current vaccine is combined with the diphtheria vaccine and possibly the pertussis vaccine. By declining the tetanus booster, you also refused the diphtheria booster, and if you have not had at least one dose of the vaccine that contains the pertussis component you refused that, too. Your doctor does not sound very knowledgeable about vaccines.
No one has died from the Disney measles outbreak yet. Anyone who had measles during it, especially the younger victims, is at risk for a late complication called subacute sclerosing panencephalitis. It causes devastating brain damage and is ultimately fatal. A fourteen year old boy died from that last year. There was another death last year, related to different outbreak, not the Disney one. A woman who was immunocompromised died in Washington State, despite having been vaccinated herself. Her immune system could not handle the virus.
The HPV vaccine is safe and effective. Merck would be the only one to sell it because it is the only one that makes it. Perry should have stayed out of it, but it sounds like someone convinced him of the merits of the vaccine.
It turns out to the HPV vaccine is virtually 100% effective, and contrary to the internet "hysteria" about it there has not been a single confirmed fatality due to it. The worst side effects are a sore arm and a tendency to faint after getting it. Fainting can happen after any shot, by the way and can be prevented by having the patient lie down for a short while. My prediction is that there will be a lot of people with disease, including cancers, from HPV who are going to wish their parents had given them the HPV vaccine.
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Originally Posted by Mason3001
Ask your doctor point blank if they receive a spiff on the vaccines they sell? I think it's a bad idea to pay doctors by the injection.
Bad idea? Doctors may not even be paid enough to cover the cost of the vaccine in some cases. Buying and storing them is expensive.
Doctors would make way more money by treating kids sick with vaccine preventable diseases than they do by administering vaccines.
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Originally Posted by WildColonialGirl
Now, see this is not factual. When you say the Hep B series takes six months to complete, that first shot is not part of the series. It confers no long term immunity because newborns' immune systems are so immature. The only thing it does it protect that baby from a Hep B positive mother. Go and look up the actual data, or if you're not feeling like it, compare the child vaccine schedules with the catchup ones.
The first dose is indeed part of the series. Newborns do have an antibody response to it, though it takes the entire series to maximize protection. Infants of known hepatitis B positive mothers are also given hepatitis B immune globulin. The immune globulin contains antibodies which neutralize the virus. The vaccine causes the baby to make his own antibodies.
"A total of 86 newborns responded to the vaccination as well as older children, irrespective of the HBV status of their mothers."
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I'm glad for your patients that they had windfalls that allowed them to go back to work, but that argument is up there with starting a newborn on formula just in case you die. (and yes, I have seen this suggested). If you decide to put the baby in care in those few weeks between birth and the first vaccines, then you can give them the vaccine. It's not hard to get.
What exactly is your objection to the birth dose of hepatitis B vaccine? It's not clear from your posts.
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I was objecting to your ignoring the differences between vaccines. It is extremely counterproductive to give people even vaguest hint of an impression that say, the flu vax and the Hib vax are the same. Have you heard how Hib used to be? In fact, as a peds nurse, maybe you had a patient die of it? It is a hideous disease, with a super effective vaccine. Flu, on the other hand, is a disease that can be awful, is dangerous for certain populations, and has a very ineffective vaccine. People know that about the flu, they don't know that about Hib. When you say they're just as important as each other, they think Hib is like the flu. Same goes for chicken pox and the measles.
The effectiveness of the flu vaccine varies with how well it matches the circulating strains. Most years it's about 60% effective. It can be dangerous for anyone, though some populations are at higher risk. It sounds as if you are saying that unless a vaccine is as effective as the Hib vaccine it's worthless. Is a vaccine that reduces the risk of flu by two thirds worthless?
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And FYI, if an unvaccinated person is exposed to shingles, they can just get the vaccine. If you google "post exposure prophylaxis" it should explain it.
Shingles? Do you mean chickenpox? Exposure to shingles can cause chickenpox, but it requires contact with fluid from a blister.
Post exposure prophylaxis to chickenpox requires getting the vaccine within three days of exposure and is 90% effective. For some high risk people, it involves getting varicella immune globulin. It costs about $700 per dose, with high risk folks getting two doses.
Acyclovir can also be used, but it appears to prevent symptoms. People treated with it have shown a high rate of serologic evidence of infection despite not having symptomatic disease.
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I think you need to go and read up on Hib if you think the flu is a worse disease. Or, indeed, almost any other vaccine preventible disease. Also, please do some reading about relative risks for different populations and how it compares to absolute risk. Look at the comparison between an elderly diabetic asthmatic and the flu vs a healthy 12 year old with the flu and a healthy child with Hib. You're making the same error the anti vaxxers do when they say that most vistims in an outbreak are vaxxed.
I think you underestimate the risk of flu in healthy children. There were 50 pediatric flu deaths this year reported to the CDC through April 9. Based on past experience, about half of those will have been children with no underlying medical problems.
Edited to add: I see Katarina gave you much more info on pediatric flu.
No, Down Syndrome (without the s) is caused by having an extra chromosome, not an intrauterine infection. You are probably thinking about rubella, which can cause severe birth defects if a pregnant woman has it.
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Thank you..... it has been over 40 years since these families were in my orbit...... stuff gets lost sometimes......
". What if you're planning to wait till age 4 or 5 and in the meantime Grandma comes down with shingles and exposes your child to the chickenpox virus?"
What if Newborn baby is too young to be vaccinated for Chicken Pox? What if DADDY is too young (33) to be vaccinated for Shingles? BTW, it has surprised me to hear of more young adults getting Shingles in their 30's.
My SIL's Shingles was on his back. He just washed his hands and covered up his rash with a shirt when he held his baby. He also went to work (public school teacher) wearing a shirt. My husband did the same when he had it, before Grandson was born. Yes, he had his Shingles shot, but still came down with. He was under a lot of stress after his heart attack, as was my SIL as a new Father.
The rash has to be oozing, as I think you said, and another person has to touch it for it to be contagious for chicken pox. Both their doctors told them to just cover up the rash, and go to work.
Didn't they lower the age for that vaccination from 60 to 50? Maybe they need to lower it even more to include anyone who has ever had Chicken Pox?
". What if you're planning to wait till age 4 or 5 and in the meantime Grandma comes down with shingles and exposes your child to the chickenpox virus?"
What if Newborn baby is too young to be vaccinated for Chicken Pox? What if DADDY is too young (33) to be vaccinated for Shingles? BTW, it has surprised me to hear of more young adults getting Shingles in their 30's.
My SIL's Shingles was on his back. He just washed his hands and covered up his rash with a shirt when he held his baby. He also went to work (public school teacher) wearing a shirt. My husband did the same when he had it, before Grandson was born. Yes, he had his Shingles shot, but still came down with. He was under a lot of stress after his heart attack, as was my SIL as a new Father.
The rash has to be oozing, as I think you said, and another person has to touch it for it to be contagious for chicken pox. Both their doctors told them to just cover up the rash, and go to work.
Didn't they lower the age for that vaccination from 60 to 50? Maybe they need to lower it even more to include anyone who has ever had Chicken Pox?
CDC's recommendation for Zostavax (shingles shot) is age 60. However, the vaccine is approved for use for all those fifty and older. I opted to have my shot about two years ago when I was 54.
Shingles is really bad stuff. Jo here will never listen. However, for anyone else paying attention: You don't want Shingles its acutely painful and can lead to a worse condition known as post-herpetic-neuralgia where the pain never goes away. The shot won't prevent everyone from getting shingles, but it does reduce your odds sharply. I will take all the protection that I can get.
Common sense has to be left at the door to the science laboratory. It can be misleading and cannot be trusted.
"Patient zero" by definition is the first identified person in an outbreak in a specific location.
"Patient Zero" is the first identified patient in an outbreak in a specific location. The person that Patient Zero got the disease from may be on a different continent, such as with measles. From the standpoint of epidemiology and controlling the outbreak traced to Patient Zero, who he got it from is irrelevant. The travel history usually lets the epidemiologist know that the person who infected Patient Zero is not going to infect anyone else in the outbreak under consideration.
I am sorry that you cannot understand that, but I reiterate that reading a bit about epidemiology would be valuable and perhaps correct the misconceptions that you have about the spread of VPDs.
I do understand. No need to be condescending. There is a term used in the world of epidemiology to define the first identified person in an outbreak in a specific location as "patient zero" but in the real world that person who is defined as "patient zero" caught their illness from someone else who just so happens to remains unidentified and that person caught it from someone and so on and so forth. Patient zero is just the first identified person, not the first person who had the illness. Identifying the TRUE SOURCE of illness is impossible because the true source is bacteria and viruses, not a person. You can't sue bacteria nor can you sue a virus. You should not be able to sue a person for catching an illness and subsequently passing it on to others by default.
There is room for common sense and logic in any discussion. Using an epidemiology term to make yourself feel superior and to dodge the reality of what I said does not lend itself to the discussion at hand.
I'm pro-vaccine. Having written that, the only way I'd be pro-forcing people to get vaccinated is if a significant percentage of the population wasn't getting vaccinated. If its only a relative "few," then I suppose it is what it is.
CDC's recommendation for Zostavax (shingles shot) is age 60. However, the vaccine is approved for use for all those fifty and older. I opted to have my shot about two years ago when I was 54.
Shingles is really bad stuff. Jo here will never listen. However, for anyone else paying attention: You don't want Shingles its acutely painful and can lead to a worse condition known as post-herpetic-neuralgia where the pain never goes away. The shot won't prevent everyone from getting shingles, but it does reduce your odds sharply. I will take all the protection that I can get.
You are totally ignoring what I posted. What would you have done BEFORE a 33 year old new Father got Shingles? He did not have to refuse his Shingles shot because he would not be OFFERED it in the first place because of his age. How would YOU have prevented it? He had Chicken Pox before that vax came out.
My SIL was 20 years your Junior. MAJOR difference. Shingles was not "really bad" stuff for this 33 year old young adult. His age maybe? Moot point really since at his age he would not have been offered that vaccination in the first place. Do you think the CDC should lower the age on this??? Apparently, they don't think so, any more than giving HPV vaccinations to women over 26 years old. If there is a vaccination out there to prevent some disease, everyone should get it?
I will give you this much. Perhaps, my husband's (10 years your Senior) Shingles was very mild was because of his vaccination. Whether I myself want it is MY decision if I want to chance the best or worse case consequences. I believe in CHOICE for everyone.
Last edited by Jo48; 04-19-2016 at 11:17 AM..
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