Are anti-vaxxers liable if their children spread preventable diseases? (stats, Brown, parties)
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"What do you do when the parents want to take their unvaccinated kindergartner with them on their mission trip to the Philippines? Do you let the family back in when they return?"
"The people who bring measles into the country are returning Americans more than half the time. They need to be vaccinated before they leave the country."
Going through Airport Security is crazy enough as it is, can you just imagine them checking all American citizens vaccination records also?
Last time I came back from a Caribbean cruise, Americans were told to form a separate line, and walk through holding their US Passports up in the air. They were not looked at at all. Vaccination records? There were children of all ages on that ship. Let me see? You are such and such an age so these are the vaccinations you MUST have? Imagine for adults? Lady, you cannot come back into the country without your HPV vax. Grandpa, you have not gotten your Shingles shot. Line up and roll up your sleeves, Citizen! I did work with a child who was totally unvaccinated. His parents were from the UK and Balkans. They went back a few times a year and came back with both their American born, unvaccinated children. So now CITIZENS need to have their vaccination records checked? Totalitarian government. I am sure their Mom coming from her country would have loved this one.
I totally agree with Miss Terri. Freedom to choose your own medical intervention is a basic human right. Nuremberg Codes. Vaccinations are part of Preventive Care under all Insurance Plans today by way of the ACA. If you can mandate one part (vaccinations), then you might someday mandate all the other medical interventions as well.
Bad, bad idea. Do you seriously want to give up a basic freedom like that just for "health". If the majority of our country thinks that, then America is doomed.
I suggest you learn something about vaccine preventable disease and the disease they prevent before attempting to participate in discussions about them. The shingles vax is for personal protection, due to the usual location of the rash it's unlikely you'd give the disease to anyone but an intimate partner. The HPV vaccine is only approved for very young women, the majority of the population is not allowed to have it.
There is no need to check vax status at the border (although it is easy to do, with RFID passports they have all sorts of info attached), because since most children are in the school system, you control it there, like the new Calif law does.
Interesting that you think citizens are somehow special and better than non-citizens, who are required to be fully vaccinated for immigration.
You do not think, because of how you feel about science, that there might be other people who think that vaccinations ARE experimentations? We have people on here who think these vaccinations should be forced, or either "vile traitors" should be punished and put to death? Do you advocate doing that to increase vaccination rates, or whatever procedure your profession deems necessary? This is what we are talking about. Freedom to choose for whatever reason a person may have.
You do know that the more you push this, the more people will dig in their heels and fight back for whatever their reasons may be. All the rambling on and on about the science is moot if a person chooses they want no medical interventions. You probably don't.
No, I do not think vaccines are "experimentations". Vaccines have been around, officially, since 1798 when Jenner developed the smallpox vaccine, and before that with variolation for smallpox. Vaccine science is pretty well established. Diphtheria toxoid (vaccine) is about 90 years old now, tetanus and pertussis are in their 70s. And vaccines are tested, tested, and tested before they go on to market. Many other medical procedures are far more "experimental" than vaccines. This is how we ensure the safety of a vaccine : PATH Blog
Your other questions are insulting. I have expressed my opinions on vaccines many times over. Punish and put to death, really!
I haven't paid much attention to this anti-vaxxing phenomenon until a couple days ago Robert Deniro mentioned that his wife noticed their child develop autistic symptoms overnight after receiving a vaccine with mercury as a basic ingredient in it.
Robert Deniro is a fairly level-headed man.
Oh, for heaven sakes. The man was nearly 70 and his wife in her 50's when this child was born via a surrogate mother. Nothing about the man is fairly level-headed and there could be all sorts of reasons for the autistic symptoms.
No, I do not think vaccines are "experimentations". Vaccines have been around, officially, since 1798 when Jenner developed the smallpox vaccine, and before that with variolation for smallpox. Vaccine science is pretty well established. Diphtheria toxoid (vaccine) is about 90 years old now, tetanus and pertussis are in their 70s. And vaccines are tested, tested, and tested before they go on to market. Many other medical procedures are far more "experimental" than vaccines. This is how we ensure the safety of a vaccine : PATH Blog
Your other questions are insulting. I have expressed my opinions on vaccines many times over. Punish and put to death, really!
Safe? Not getting into safety factor, but how about does not work, or just plain wanes after a few(or one) years? Flu shot best example. Of course, the new 2005 Tdap is not working out as planned either. Waning after only about 5 years. You can search your own scientific journals on that one. My child, or in the case of this CHILDREN, are up to date on their shots. Isn't this supposed to protect them IF they come into contact with whooping cough? Answer? Blame the unvaccinated for something their vaccinations are supposed to protect against? This is not "safety" issue, but as I said, FAILED PRODUCT. It is happening too much to put the blame on "unvaccinated" either child, or adult.
You can bring back a "failed" toaster or car. You cannot bring back a "failed" vaccine, or sue the manufacturer if you either catch the disease, or experience adverse reactions from it. "It may not work, but get it anyway." Media push from 2014 Flu Shots. Would anyone say the same with a CAR?
As we know, big Pharma has money to push this. https://over-vaccination.net/ If you want to do something about the spread of disease in our country, get the darn Wall built on our southern border! Look at how sickly our population has become since we got all of these vaccines. While some things have been eliminated, look at the other more serious problems we see with a poisoned population.
Another thought, is this really the huge problem the media tries to make of it? Look at the toxins in the water, food, air, soil and maybe think about how that is effecting our health.
I regret giving my younger son the immunizations and would not have done it if the information available today was available at the time he got them. Sensitive individuals should say no for sure. If you want to pump down legal poisons, go for it but leave my family alone!
As we know, big Pharma has money to push this. https://over-vaccination.net/ If you want to do something about the spread of disease in our country, get the darn Wall built on our southern border! Look at how sickly our population has become since we got all of these vaccines. While some things have been eliminated, look at the other more serious problems we see with a poisoned population.
Another thought, is this really the huge problem the media tries to make of it? Look at the toxins in the water, food, air, soil and maybe think about how that is effecting our health.
I regret giving my younger son the immunizations and would not have done it if the information available today was available at the time he got them. Sensitive individuals should say no for sure. If you want to pump down legal poisons, go for it but leave my family alone!
Central and South American generally have as good or better immunization rates than the US. The only ebola cases in this country were the one brought in from Africa and the two nurses who got it taking care of him. No one really knows where swine flu (H1N1) got its start. Q&A: Where Did The Swine Flu Come From? : NPR Dengue fever is caused by mosquitoes. Somehow they seem to have escaped the border patrol. Most of the TB cases in the US have been brought in from Asia. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...e-in-23-years/
Yet at the same time, you regret protecting your child!
Safe? Not getting into safety factor, but how about does not work, or just plain wanes after a few(or one) years? Flu shot best example. Of course, the new 2005 Tdap is not working out as planned either. Waning after only about 5 years. You can search your own scientific journals on that one. My child, or in the case of this CHILDREN, are up to date on their shots. Isn't this supposed to protect them IF they come into contact with whooping cough? Answer? Blame the unvaccinated for something their vaccinations are supposed to protect against? This is not "safety" issue, but as I said, FAILED PRODUCT. It is happening too much to put the blame on "unvaccinated" either child, or adult.
You can bring back a "failed" toaster or car. You cannot bring back a "failed" vaccine, or sue the manufacturer if you either catch the disease, or experience adverse reactions from it. "It may not work, but get it anyway." Media push from 2014 Flu Shots. Would anyone say the same with a CAR?
We all know that flu mutates rapidly and that the vaccines don't approach anywhere near full efficacy. However, even the 23% from last winter is better than 0%. Prior to Tdap, there was no pertussis vaccine to give people over the age of 7, and it was well known that immunity from the old DTwP also waned over time. Tdap does extend the immunity period for several more years. All the pertussis outbreaks of recent years have been caused in part by failure to vaccinate. This has been documented. Vaccine Refusals Fueled California's Whooping Cough Epidemic : Shots - Health News : NPR (Also links to the original research inside the article.)
Suzy, my post was in direct response to the things that you said. No desperation on my part, just responding to direct statements that you made. On one hand you are claiming that those who do not vaccinate are a huge threat to the vaccinated, yet you claim that when those who are vaccinated get the illness, it is an extremely mild version. If that's true then I'm not following the logic that those who refuse some or all vaccines are such a huge threat worthy of mandates and lawsuits.
You responded to my discussion of the reasons that people who have vaccines fail are less likely to spread the disease with the bizarre allegation that I was saying vaccines are 100% effective. I have never said all vaccines are 100% effective, though the HPV vaccine is pretty close to it for the strains in the vaccine. Your response was so irrelevant to what I said that either you were desperately trying to find something to say or just flat out failed to comprehend what I said.
Those who refuse vaccines are many times more likely to get sick if exposed to the disease. They pose a risk to those for whom the vaccine fails, those who are too young to be vaccinated, and those who are immunocompromised (who may have been vaccinated but their immune systems are not working right). If enough do not vaccinate, herd immunity fails. Whooping cough incidence in this country is higher in communities with low vaccination rates. There are pockets where the vaccination rate is lower than in third world countries.
Government has the right to protect all of its citizens, including the promotion of their health. That is why vaccine mandates are legal. As far as lawsuits are concerned, I place harms done to others by not vaccinating in the same category as harms done to others by drunk driving.
I notice you still have not answered my question: What harm do the vaccinated do to the unvaccinated?
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Originally Posted by MissTerri
I understand that a small subset of the population can't get vaccinated for health reasons or age but I don't see that as a good enough reason to advocate for people being coerced into giving up their right to choose to forgo a medical intervention via mandates and the threat of lawsuits. Our freedom to choose is worth protecting. Today it's a push for vaccines, in the future it will be something else. One day the vaccine pushers may find themselves in a position where they wish to exercise their informed consent and forgo a recommended medical intervention and they will not be allowed to. They can thank themselves for paving the way for a lack of choice. If they get sued, they can also thank themselves for the lawsuit.
What you propose in thread after thread on the topic of vaccines is much more damaging to our freedom as individuals then any threat that comes from the small subset of the population who refuses some or all vaccines.
Mandating vaccines does nothing to your freedom. No one forces you to vaccinate your child. You may just have to find an alternative way to educate him if you refuse to comply with school vaccine requirements.
You may also refuse any and all medical treatment for yourself. You may not refuse lifesaving treatment for your child.
Moderator cut: Quoted post has been deleted
Pediatricians do vaccinate their children. I have discussed the idiocy of the anti-vax movement with a couple who are pediatricians. We were discussing the HIb vaccine, one of the "new" vaccines. They told me how before the vaccine they would have parents with feverish babies stacked up in the office waiting on the test results from spinal taps to make sure their children did not have meningitis. Now, it is rare to have to do the test, because the vaccine has reduced the risk so much.
Vaccines can have complications, but "horrible" complications are so rare that it is difficult to be sure the vaccine is actually at fault. Horrible complications of vaccine preventable diseases are not rare.
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Originally Posted by MissTerri
What makes you think that I'm against medical interventions as a whole??? That's a strange leap to make based upon what I said. I'm against forced medical intervention. I'm against coerced medical intervention. In other words, I'm in favor of informed consent.
Informed consent has nothing to do with vaccine mandates. Anyone who is being vaccinated is given a Vaccine Information Statement. It describes the risk of the vaccine. You may then choose to take the vaccine or have your child take the vaccine - or not. That is the informed consent process.
You are not forced or coerced to vaccinate your child. You just may not be able to send him to school.
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Originally Posted by Jo48
"What do you do when the parents want to take their unvaccinated kindergartner with them on their mission trip to the Philippines? Do you let the family back in when they return?"
"The people who bring measles into the country are returning Americans more than half the time. They need to be vaccinated before they leave the country."
Going through Airport Security is crazy enough as it is, can you just imagine them checking all American citizens vaccination records also?
Last time I came back from a Caribbean cruise, Americans were told to form a separate line, and walk through holding their US Passports up in the air. They were not looked at at all. Vaccination records? There were children of all ages on that ship. Let me see? You are such and such an age so these are the vaccinations you MUST have? Imagine for adults? Lady, you cannot come back into the country without your HPV vax. Grandpa, you have not gotten your Shingles shot. Line up and roll up your sleeves, Citizen! I did work with a child who was totally unvaccinated. His parents were from the UK and Balkans. They went back a few times a year and came back with both their American born, unvaccinated children. So now CITIZENS need to have their vaccination records checked? Totalitarian government. I am sure their Mom coming from her country would have loved this one.
I totally agree with Miss Terri. Freedom to choose your own medical intervention is a basic human right. Nuremberg Codes. Vaccinations are part of Preventive Care under all Insurance Plans today by way of the ACA. If you can mandate one part (vaccinations), then you might someday mandate all the other medical interventions as well.
Bad, bad idea. Do you seriously want to give up a basic freedom like that just for "health". If the majority of our country thinks that, then America is doomed.
Your slippery slope rhetoric and mumbling about Nuremberg codes gets tiresome after a while. It would be a simple matter to include a vaccination record with a passport.
No one is forced to vaccinate. You just have to choose whether it is more important to you to travel out of the country or to refuse vaccines.
Vaccines are part of preventive care under current insurance plans because they reduce the risk people will get sick. That saves insurance companies money. The companies would be happy for you to refuse any all medical treatment. Then they do not have to pay for it. I assume that if you get the flu and get pneumonia you will stay at home and not go to the hospital. You do have that choice, you know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48
Safe? Not getting into safety factor, but how about does not work, or just plain wanes after a few(or one) years? Flu shot best example. Of course, the new 2005 Tdap is not working out as planned either. Waning after only about 5 years. You can search your own scientific journals on that one. My child, or in the case of this CHILDREN, are up to date on their shots. Isn't this supposed to protect them IF they come into contact with whooping cough? Answer? Blame the unvaccinated for something their vaccinations are supposed to protect against? This is not "safety" issue, but as I said, FAILED PRODUCT. It is happening too much to put the blame on "unvaccinated" either child, or adult.
You can bring back a "failed" toaster or car. You cannot bring back a "failed" vaccine, or sue the manufacturer if you either catch the disease, or experience adverse reactions from it. "It may not work, but get it anyway." Media push from 2014 Flu Shots. Would anyone say the same with a CAR?
Most vaccines are highly effective, protecting 90% or better of the people who take them. The flu vaccine is the only exception, and it still protects about 60% of the time on average, as is true this year as of February.
Perhaps you could provide a source that says the Tdap is not working? A one time booster is all that is needed unless you are a pregnant woman, who should get it with each pregnancy. It is not a "failed product". By the way, having whooping cough does not provide permanent immunity either.
Since you are more likely to get whooping cough and spread it if you are unvaccinated, that is where the blame belongs.
You cannot sue the manufacturer because it is not a defect in the vaccine or negligence on the part of the maker if it does not work. As you are aware, there is a compensation program for people who do have one of the extremely rare complications from vaccines. Not being able to sue the manufacturer keeps vaccines available; otherwise, the companies would have stopped making them because the expense of dealing with frivolous lawsuits would have exceeded the income from the product. People who are unhappy with the decision concerning a claim against the fund do have the option to appeal it, all the way to the Supreme Court if they wish. Stop whining about suing the drug companies over vaccines. If you are injured, you do have recourse.
Suzy, as you know, I am an elderly retired woman. If I do not want a tetanus, flu, tdap vaccination, or for that matter a physical or mammogram, that is my choice to refuse medical intervention as an adult, whatever reasons I, or any adult over the age of 18, decides. WE dictate to YOU, and not the other way around, whatever our reasons, scientific or not. Again, I feel very sorry for the parents of young children, who cannot have the same choice for their own children, that they can make for THEMSELVES.
Please do not bring up Pandemics, again. As you know, an Influenza Pandemic was declared by the White House (post it yourself) in 2009. Were people rounded up, thrown into quarantine centers, knocks on doors giving flu shots, etc. ? You, and everyone on here, knows that did not happen. Spare me that 1918 Pandemic when we only have to go back 7 years for a declared "Pandemic".
You are going to need far more legislation extending to the entire US population to achieve your goals. Have fun. I am sure a lot of legislators in favor of vaccinations, do not want to go THAT far. Both Federal Mandatory "Vaccinate all Children" bills have been dead in the water since last year. Even Veterans have been furious over legislation that they are "tracked and complied with all CDC recommended vaccination schedules". That legislation is also dead in the water.
You do not get it. Go ahead awaken the sleeping giant. You will see what you get.
You responded to my discussion of the reasons that people who have vaccines fail are less likely to spread the disease with the bizarre allegation that I was saying vaccines are 100% effective. I have never said all vaccines are 100% effective, though the HPV vaccine is pretty close to it for the strains in the vaccine. Your response was so irrelevant to what I said that either you were desperately trying to find something to say or just flat out failed to comprehend what I said.
I responded directly to statements that you made. Instead of arguing or implying that I am "desperate" or that I "fail to comprehend" I suggest you re-read what you wrote. I stand by what I said.
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Whooping cough incidence in this country is higher in communities with low vaccination rates. There are pockets where the vaccination rate is lower than in third world countries.
Whooping cough will continue to rise in our country due to mutations which will continue to decrease the current vaccines effectiveness. Or they will just give boosters to every man, woman and child on a semi regular basis since it's become clear that the vaccine does not protect people for very long. That mandate will extend to all adults. What will we coerce them with? No vaccine, no driver's license? No vaccine, no employment?
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Government has the right to protect all of its citizens, including the promotion of their health. That is why vaccine mandates are legal. As far as lawsuits are concerned, I place harms done to others by not vaccinating in the same category as harms done to others by drunk driving.
We fundamentally disagree on this issue and clearly will never reach any kind of consensus. I don't believe that it is the government's role is to mandate vaccinations for everyone. I also can't see how you can prove that the failure to submit to a specific medical intervention that is not 100% foolproof nor is it risk free was the critical factor that led to someone else catching an illness. It seems childish to expect that you will never be exposed to illness in life.
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Mandating vaccines does nothing to your freedom. No one forces you to vaccinate your child. You may just have to find an alternative way to educate him if you refuse to comply with school vaccine requirements.
Silly argument. Vaccine mandates interfere with the right to an education. If you get your way and we come to the point where vaccines are required to travel then it will also interfere with freedom of movement
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You may also refuse any and all medical treatment for yourself. You may not refuse lifesaving treatment for your child.
Refusing vaccines is not the same thing as refusing lifesaving treatment for one's child.
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Informed consent has nothing to do with vaccine mandates. Anyone who is being vaccinated is given a Vaccine Information Statement. It describes the risk of the vaccine. You may then choose to take the vaccine or have your child take the vaccine - or not. That is the informed consent process.
Mandates do interfere when exemptions do not apply and people are being threatened with lawsuits (subject of this thread) as the right to decline. That is coercion.
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You are not forced or coerced to vaccinate your child. You just may not be able to send him to school.
Again with the coercion thing.
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