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Not if everyone's fully vaccinated (and said disease is one of those vaccinated against), it's not. That's kind of the whole point. If the disease isn't present in a population then the population won't have to worry about the disease. Ironically, it's exactly this fact that makes folks think they can get away with not vaccinating- nobody's had to worry about measels or smallpox or polio in any real way since vaccines became the norm, so folks think they're not something they have to worry about. But the less folks vaccinate, the more likely it is that folks will be exposed.
How to do propose that we vaccinate everyone? As of now the focus is all on babies and young children and it still doesn't catch all babies and kids. How do you deal with adults who's immunity has waned? How do you deal with adults who had a different vaccine schedule when they were kids?
It's not possible to vaccinate everyone unless you are proposing a totalitarian type of government that forces submission or else. Is that what people want?
Besides, even with 100% vaccine compliance you would still be exposed to illness and disease when you leave the house.
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Originally Posted by Threerun
Other nasties like rubella and whooping cough don't mutate as fast as influenza. That's why they were almost ELIMINATED when vaccination rates were over 95% or more. Now that those vaccination rates are falling- the nasties are changing and the old vaccinations won't help those previously inoculated. Herd immunity goes right out the window.
Pertussis aka whooping cough has mutated to out smart the vaccine. That is why we have been seeing larger outbreaks. The evidence of this has been piling up for years and can no longer be ignored by those who understand science.
Pertussis aka whooping cough has mutated to out smart the vaccine. That is why we have been seeing larger outbreaks. The evidence of this has been piling up for years and can no longer be ignored by those who understand science.
Since 1991, data on reported pertussis cases show that outbreaks occurred in Australia in 1996–1997, 2001, and 2004, and a series of outbreaks occurred in different regions starting in 2008 (Figure 1) (2,3). Multiple factors probably contributed to the resurgence of pertussis in high-income countries that had long-standing pertussis immunization programs. These factors include waning immunity (exacerbated by the change from WCVs to ACVs and, in Australia, cessation of the booster vaccination at 18 months of age) and increased use of more sensitive diagnostic tests, such PCR (4).
An additional possible contributing factor is evolution of B. pertussis through vaccine-driven adaptation (5). The most prominent recent changes in circulating B. pertussis strains are polymorphisms within genes encoding 2 of the 3 main virulence factors (ptx and prn) contained in the vaccine. Variations have also been reported in ptxP, the promoter of the ptx operon (6). In Australia, we have shown by single nucleotide polymorphism (SNP) typing that among B. pertussis isolates, ptxP3–containing strains predominate (7), and these strains belong to SNP cluster I (8,9).
It did mutate. Likely as a result of a change to a less reactive vaccine. New vaccines will have to address the new strains. Increased rates of incidence will likely allow it to mutate further..
Some suspect that the mutation was because of the vaccine so even if we come up with a brand new vaccine we may see it mutate again. The scary thing is that we could potentially be creating a more dangerous version of pertussis by trying to out smart it with vaccines. As of now most won't even admit that the mutation is at the root of the increased outbreaks even though more and more evidence comes out about it. There is also evidence that even when the vaccine does take, the immunity wanes very quickly meaning that there are a lot of children who have been fully vaccinated who are not immune. The denial will only delay any new vaccine. Until then people will continue to blame those who don't vaccinate as the root of the problem and pass legislation based on inaccurate info. I think that's dangerous.
How to do propose that we vaccinate everyone? As of now the focus is all on babies and young children and it still doesn't catch all babies and kids. How do you deal with adults who's immunity has waned? How do you deal with adults who had a different vaccine schedule when they were kids?
It's not possible to vaccinate everyone unless you are proposing a totalitarian type of government that forces submission or else. Is that what people want?
Besides, even with 100% vaccine compliance you would still be exposed to illness and disease when you leave the house.
Pertussis aka whooping cough has mutated to out smart the vaccine. That is why we have been seeing larger outbreaks. The evidence of this has been piling up for years and can no longer be ignored by those who understand science.
Thank you, again, Miss Terri. No, not just every schoolchild, but some advocating that adults lose their jobs, get their taxes raised, for not complying with the CDC's Vaccination Schedule. Tdap is the best example.
Some of us warned that it would not stop with little children because their "Herd Immunity" cannot be achieved with only 25% of the population 100% vaccinated under 18 years old. Google the HHS National Adult Vaccination Plan.
Sorry, other posters. Granny ain't rolling up her sleeve to protect VACCINATED YOU or yours. If you cannot see the irony in that, well sue the old lady and keep her out of public school.
Moderator cut: Focus on the topic, not discussing other posters
"In 2015, 189 people from 24 states and the District of Columbia were reported to have measles. In 2014, the United States experienced a record number of measles cases, with 667 cases from 27 states reported to CDC's National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Diseases (NCIRD); this is the greatest number of cases since measles elimination was documented in the U.S. in 2000."
Remember the definition of elimination: it means the virus is not circulating in the American population. Every measles case in the US (and the other Americas) has to be imported from a country where the virus still circulates in the population. Usually what happens is that someone brings in measles to a highly vaccinated population and it does not spread very far, maybe infecting a handful of others. What is now concerning is that it is being brought into communities where there are larger numbers of unvaccinated people, resulting in larger outbreaks.
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Originally Posted by MissTerri
The vaccine does not work against the bacteria with the mutation. The evidence has been stacking up throughout the years that the mutation has been the cause for the outbreaks of pertussis.
"Pertactin is one of several components of all pertussis vaccines. It is a protein that helps pertussis bacteria attach to the lining of the airways. There is a new study that found that if a vaccinated person gets pertussis, it is more likely to be caused by a pertactin-deficient strain. However, current evidence suggests pertussis vaccines continue to prevent disease caused by both pertactin-positive and pertactin-negative pertussis strains since other components of the vaccines provide protection."
The cause of outbreaks is not being immunized at all. Disease spreads more easily when large numbers of people are not vaccinated. I know you do not want to believe it, but herd immunity does exist.
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They already have these types of mandates. A lot of healthcare workers are against them. I suspect that we'll lose a lot of great childcare providers if this type of mandates comes to fruition on a large scale. I also doubt that the mandates would stop there as outbreaks would continue. Next up it would be college professors, store clerks, etc. But that's what you want so this would likely please you.
People who refuse to vaccinate themselves to protect the patients or children they come in contact with are not very caring. Any health care worker who refuses vaccination is demonstrating an ignorance about vaccines, immunology, and infectious disease that would make me doubt her competence in other areas. Mandates do prevent outbreaks. Mississippi and West Virginia do not have measles outbreaks, for example.
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A person's refusal to vaccinate for everything on the schedule does not cause everyone to be exposed to preventable illness. Contrary to your line of thinking, people who are not vaccinated do not spontaneously create disease in their bodies and are not walking around exposing people to illness. I've been exposed to flu, for example, from more vaccinated people then I have been exposed from unvaccinated people. I didn't get mad at them for exposing me I accepted it as I had gone out of the house during flu season. In spite of not having the vaccine I never caught it anyway but wouldn't have been mad at anyone if I did.
A person's refusal to vaccinate does indeed expose everyone to an increased risk of coming in contact with that disease.
My "line of thinking" does not include any such idea as unvaccinated people spontaneously generating a VPD, and it says something about your "way of thinking" that you would make such an allegation. You want to believe you are more likely to be exposed to the flu by someone who is vaccinated than someone who is not. Since two thirds of people who are vaccinated against influenza will not get it on average, that belief is defied by simple mathematics. Your statement continues to expose your ignorance about infectious disease, vaccines, and epidemiology. It's not vaccinated people who are spreading vaccine preventable diseases.
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It is childish to expect that one will never get sick from a certain list of illnesses simply because a vaccine that may or may not work exists.
One will not get sick from polio in this country, because a vaccine exists. People will not catch measles in this country unless a traveler brings it from halfway around the world, because a vaccine exists. The same with rubella. There was one case of diphtheria reported in the US in 2012, the last case before that was in 2003, because of the vaccine.
The case in 2003 was a 63 year old man who traveled to Haiti. he had never been vaccinated. He died.
One child cannot be the source since they caught it form someone and that person caught it from someone else and so on and so forth. A pediatricians office should have "well" and "sick" areas in the waiting room. They should also have an area exclusively for newborns and babies and a policy to let people who are sick in the back door into a special room just reserved for sick patients. Shall we sue the pediatrician's office who have not done these things? A part of their job is to see sick patients so it should be expected that if you go to the pediatricians office you may come into contact with illness and disease. More could be done to prevent exposure. Has it in all cases?
Yes one child can be the source. It's called "patient zero": the initial case identified in an outbreak in a specific location. Epidemiology 101.
All the precautions that pediatricians have will do nothing if a parent just walks in with a sick child without alerting the office first, which is all too common with measles.
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No one has ever been sued for not vaccinating. I think that has been established in this thread. The source of the illness is either a virus or a bacteria, not a person. You could trace it back and back and back (and find vaccinated folks along the way as well as unvaccinated folks) and never get to the original source because there isn't one person who spontaneously created it in their body.
You really, really, really could benefit from reading a book about epidemiology.
The organism is the cause of the illness. The person who has it is the source.
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Originally Posted by MissTerri
How to do propose that we vaccinate everyone? As of now the focus is all on babies and young children and it still doesn't catch all babies and kids. How do you deal with adults who's immunity has waned? How do you deal with adults who had a different vaccine schedule when they were kids?
It's not possible to vaccinate everyone unless you are proposing a totalitarian type of government that forces submission or else. Is that what people want?
Besides, even with 100% vaccine compliance you would still be exposed to illness and disease when you leave the house.
Adults whose immunity has waned for some diseases need boosters, notably pertussis, diphtheria, and tetanus. For measles, mumps, and rubella boosters are not routinely recommended. For most adults who are not up to date the reason is that they are not aware of what they should do. When advised to vaccinate, most will.
No one is forced to vaccinate. Don't do it if you don't want to. Just stop whining about having to deal with the consequences of your decision.
With high vaccine compliance VPDs are not the illnesses you will be exposed to when you leave the house. No one expects vaccines to protect against anything except what they are designed to prevent. You may get a cold or catch any number of GI viruses or get a strept throat, but you will not get diphtheria.
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Pertussis aka whooping cough has mutated to out smart the vaccine. That is why we have been seeing larger outbreaks. The evidence of this has been piling up for years and can no longer be ignored by those who understand science.
"Pertactin is one of several components of all pertussis vaccines. It is a protein that helps pertussis bacteria attach to the lining of the airways. There is a new study that found that if a vaccinated person gets pertussis, it is more likely to be caused by a pertactin-deficient strain. However, current evidence suggests pertussis vaccines continue to prevent disease caused by both pertactin-positive and pertactin-negative pertussis strains since other components of the vaccines provide protection."
We are seeing larger outbreaks because there are pockets in the US where too few people are vaccinated at all.
There are many good arguments for getting the Hep B vaccine in infancy. About 90% of infants who get Hep B become chronically infected. Older kids and adults are more likely to recover completely. A big risk factor in Hep B is simply living with someone who has it. That can move you from low risk to high overnight if a new person moves into the household (marriage, take in a relative, etc). Hep B virus is much more contagious than HIV and can be spread through cuts, bites, and the like.
Yes, that is true. That's why for infants whose every contact is Hep B negative and immunised, the vaccine is unnecessary. Put them in daycare or school and their risk changes. But for babies in families of hep B negative people it's not necessary. That's why no one gave me any grief when I declined it.
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There's no good reason at all to delay chickenpox vaccine. When the vax first came out, many parents wanted to wait to see if their kids would get it naturally. However, the probability of that decreased as more and more kids got vaxxed, and the unvaxxed kids' chances of exposure decreased. Chickenpox can be much harder on adults than kids. In fact, about half the deaths pre-vaccine were to adults who caught it from their own kids. It's easy to put off something like that. IMO, it's better to just get them vaxxed young.
True, but misleading. The schedule has them get it around 12 -18 months. At age four or five they are not adults.
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The other vaccines you mentioned are not part of the regular immunization schedule, other than HPV. Yellow fever, Japanese encephalitis and typhoid are sometimes required/recommended for travel to certain countries. No one gets smallpox vaccine any more. Rabies isn't recommended unless you're working with animals, or if you get bitten by an animal that may have been rabid. Q Fever vaccine is not available in the US. The TB vaccine, BCG is not very effective and not usually recommended in the US.
Would you disagree then that there are good reasons to delay those vaccines for my family until we actually face a risk of exposure?
It is counterproductive to not be honest and factual when arguing with the antivaxxers. By pretending all vaccines are identical and that immunisation schedules are set in stone you open yourself to being caught out in an untruth, and that will lead them to doubt everything else you say. Tell someone the flu vax is the same importance as the HiB vax and they will decide the HiB is as crap as the flu, and that having hib is like having the flu. We don't need to generalise or omit facts, because the data are on our side.
Suzy, dear, the majority of the country does not believe "health professionals" when they tell them to get a flu shot. You can include in this pregnant women when their "health professionals" tell them they need flu or tdap shots. Look up and POST the CDC's stats for both of those. It is less than half.
The majority of adults do not hear that they "need" Flu, Tdap, Pneumonia, Shingles shots? Turn on the TV. Go to a SUPERMARKET and you see signs all over.They are IGNORING it, just as they are ignoring all those other endless medication commercials. Oh, but if their "medical professional" (if they see one) tells me to get it, they will? "Doctor SAYS!!!!!". Sure. Inflated egos there?
It did mutate. Likely as a result of a change to a less reactive vaccine. New vaccines will have to address the new strains. Increased rates of incidence will likely allow it to mutate further..
Yes, there is a need for a better pertussis vaccine. However, those who are implying that the only reason pertussis incidence is increasing is the presence of mutated strains are wrong.
Thus far, in the US at least, the vaccine is still protecting against the mutated strains. The biggest risk factor to getting pertussis is not being vaccinated at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri
Some suspect that the mutation was because of the vaccine so even if we come up with a brand new vaccine we may see it mutate again. The scary thing is that we could potentially be creating a more dangerous version of pertussis by trying to out smart it with vaccines. As of now most won't even admit that the mutation is at the root of the increased outbreaks even though more and more evidence comes out about it. There is also evidence that even when the vaccine does take, the immunity wanes very quickly meaning that there are a lot of children who have been fully vaccinated who are not immune. The denial will only delay any new vaccine. Until then people will continue to blame those who don't vaccinate as the root of the problem and pass legislation based on inaccurate info. I think that's dangerous.
If we use the current vaccine, fewer people will get pertussis. If fewer people get pertussis, there is less opportunity for the bacteria to mutate.
There is no evidence the mutated forms are more virulent.
Research is being done on new vaccines, so your concern about a "delay" is unfounded.
Not vaccinating increases the risk of large pertussis outbreaks:
"Kulldorff’s scan statistics identified 39 statistically significant clusters of high NME [non medical exemption] rates and 2 statistically significant clusters of pertussis cases in this time period. Census tracts within an exemptions cluster were 2.5 times more likely to be in a pertussis cluster (odds ratio = 2.47, 95% confidence interval: 2.22–2.75). More cases occurred within as compared with outside exemptions clusters (incident rate ratios = 1.20, 95% confidence interval: 1.10–1.30). The association remained significant after adjustment for demographic factors. NMEs clustered spatially and were associated with clusters of pertussis cases.
CONCLUSIONS: Our data suggest clustering of NMEs may have been 1 of several factors in the 2010 California pertussis resurgence."
Yes, protection from the vaccine wanes, but it does not disappear. Most people who take it are protected. We need a better pertussis vaccine, and the experts are working on that. However, vaccine refusers do cause more outbreaks to happen.
"Pertactin is one of several components of all pertussis vaccines. It is a protein that helps pertussis bacteria attach to the lining of the airways. There is a new study that found that if a vaccinated person gets pertussis, it is more likely to be caused by a pertactin-deficient strain. However, current evidence suggests pertussis vaccines continue to prevent disease caused by both pertactin-positive and pertactin-negative pertussis strains since other components of the vaccines provide protection."
The cause of outbreaks is not being immunized at all. Disease spreads more easily when large numbers of people are not vaccinated. I know you do not want to believe it, but herd immunity does exist.
Your link won't open for me. I'd love to see the study (and who funded it) that somehow trumps all of the previous studies over the years showing that the mutation has caused the vaccine to not work for a lot of people. Does this study also trump all of the studies showing that pertussis immunity wanes quickly post vaccination and people who are fully vaccinated don't stay protected very long?
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People who refuse to vaccinate themselves to protect the patients or children they come in contact with are not very caring. Any health care worker who refuses vaccination is demonstrating an ignorance about vaccines, immunology, and infectious disease that would make me doubt her competence in other areas. Mandates do prevent outbreaks. Mississippi and West Virginia do not have measles outbreaks, for example.
It's not very caring to force or coerce people into getting injections into their body against their wishes. What other states have not seen measles outbreaks?
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A person's refusal to vaccinate does indeed expose everyone to an increased risk of coming in contact with that disease.
Your slight increase from a handful of people who chose not to vaccinate is not great enough to warrant such extreme measures such as you have proposed in this thread. Lawsuits are way out of line unless you are trying to sue bacteria or a virus.
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My "line of thinking" does not include any such idea as unvaccinated people spontaneously generating a VPD, and it says something about your "way of thinking" that you would make such an allegation. You want to believe you are more likely to be exposed to the flu by someone who is vaccinated than someone who is not. Since two thirds of people who are vaccinated against influenza will not get it on average, that belief is defied by simple mathematics. Your statement continues to expose your ignorance about infectious disease, vaccines, and epidemiology. It's not vaccinated people who are spreading vaccine preventable diseases.
Yes one child can be the source. It's called "patient zero": the initial case identified in an outbreak in a specific location. Epidemiology 101.
Epidemiology 101 doesn't trump common sense 101 which is the obvious fact that there cannot be a "patient zero" since that "patient zero" caught the illness from someone else. Unless of course you are saying that people can spontaneously create disease in their bodies. I have been exposed by vaccinated people to the flu. They told me that they had the flu and that they had been vaccinated.
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All the precautions that pediatricians have will do nothing if a parent just walks in with a sick child without alerting the office first, which is all too common with measles.
A lot of peds don't even have well and sick areas in their waiting room. If they make their policy clear then they could do a lot to prevent illness from spreading. Surely they know that some of their patients will be sick considering doctors sometimes see sick patients. It's asinine to insist that we vaccinate everyone without addressing lower hanging fruit such as this. It says a lot about the vaccine agenda that is being pushed so hard.
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The organism is the cause of the illness. The person who has it is the source.
So where did the source get the illness from? How did they get it into their body? Your the expert right? Explain, preferably without the insults and links to books on Amazon.
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Adults whose immunity has waned for some diseases need boosters, notably pertussis, diphtheria, and tetanus. For measles, mumps, and rubella boosters are not routinely recommended. For most adults who are not up to date the reason is that they are not aware of what they should do. When advised to vaccinate, most will.
Then why not focus on that group first? Instead of only focusing on babies and thinking about lawsuits.
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No one is forced to vaccinate. Don't do it if you don't want to. Just stop whining about having to deal with the consequences of your decision.
Protecting the right to not vaccinate and be coerced by punitive measures is not whining. When you and your fellow pushers quit trying to force your way down everyone's throats you will stop hearing from me on this topic.
But for babies in families of hep B negative people it's not necessary.
How do you know for sure that no one who comes in contact with your baby has hepatitis B? Many who do are unaware of it.
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True, but misleading. The schedule has them get it around 12 -18 months. At age four or five they are not adults.
The point is that immunizing young children reduces the risk of exposure of adults.
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Would you disagree then that there are good reasons to delay those vaccines for my family until we actually face a risk of exposure?
The decision to start hepatitis B vaccine at birth was not made in a vacuum. It is based on the known epidemiology of the disease: that many children who are infected have had no contact with anyone known to have hepatitis B.
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It is counterproductive to not be honest and factual when arguing with the antivaxxers. By pretending all vaccines are identical and that immunisation schedules are set in stone you open yourself to being caught out in an untruth, and that will lead them to doubt everything else you say. Tell someone the flu vax is the same importance as the HiB vax and they will decide the HiB is as crap as the flu, and that having hib is like having the flu. We don't need to generalise or omit facts, because the data are on our side.
The problem is that "alternative" vaccine schedules have not been shown to be safer than the standard schedule. All they do is leave kids at risk of getting VPDs for a longer period of time. Even alternative schedule guru "Dr. Bob" Sears admits that.
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Originally Posted by Jo48
Suzy, dear, the majority of the country does not believe "health professionals" when they tell them to get a flu shot. You can include in this pregnant women when their "health professionals" tell them they need flu or tdap shots. Look up and POST the CDC's stats for both of those. It is less than half.
The majority of adults do not hear that they "need" Flu, Tdap, Pneumonia, Shingles shots? Turn on the TV. Go to a SUPERMARKET and you see signs all over.They are IGNORING it, just as they are ignoring all those other endless medication commercials. Oh, but if their "medical professional" (if they see one) tells me to get it, they will? "Doctor SAYS!!!!!". Sure. Inflated egos there?
Let's take pregnant women and flu vaccine as an example.
" In the 2013–14 season, women who reported receiving both a clinician recommendation and offer of influenza vaccination had higher vaccination coverage (70.5%) compared with women who reported receiving a clinician recommendation but no offer (32.0%) and women who reported receiving no recommendation (9.7%). Among women who reported negative attitudes toward influenza vaccination efficacy, vaccination safety, or no concern about influenza infection but reported receiving a clinician recommendation and offer of vaccination, vaccination coverage was 15.4%, 26.1%, and 56.7%, respectively, higher than coverage among women with the same attitude but who reported only receiving a clinician recommendation (0.0%, 3.3%, and 27.6%, respectively) or receiving no recommendation (0.0%, 3.9%, and 7.9%, respectively)."
Yes, women who had doctors who recommended the vaccine and had it available to administer were more likely to take it.
"In our cohort of 1467 women, 1194 (81.6%) received a Tdap vaccine."
Many adults are not vaccinated because their doctors did not specifically recommend the vaccine, and many offices do not stock vaccines because it is expensive to do so. The vaccines cost money and proper storage costs money.
Not everyone who is not up to date on vaccines is anti-vaccine.
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