Are anti-vaxxers liable if their children spread preventable diseases? (Indiana, layoff, Michigan)
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"Pertactin is one of several components of all pertussis vaccines. It is a protein that helps pertussis bacteria attach to the lining of the airways. There is a new study that found that if a vaccinated person gets pertussis, it is more likely to be caused by a pertactin-deficient strain. However, current evidence suggests pertussis vaccines continue to prevent disease caused by both pertactin-positive and pertactin-negative pertussis strains since other components of the vaccines provide protection."
Got this to open and I linked to the study that concludes the following:
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CONCLUSIONS:
The significant association between vaccination and isolate pertactin production suggests that the likelihood of having reported disease caused by PRN(-) compared with PRN(+) strains is greater in vaccinated persons. Additional studies are needed to assess whether vaccine effectiveness is diminished against PRN(-) strains.
You and the CDC are the ones making the claim that this study suggests that the current vaccine prevents pertussis against both strains in spite of the fact the study does not make this claim at all.
More on pertussis:
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CONCLUSIONS: Tdap protection wanes within 2 to 4 years. Lack of long-term protection after vaccination is likely contributing to increases in pertussis among adolescents.
CONCLUSIONS: Routine Tdap did not prevent pertussis outbreaks. Among adolescents who have only received DTaP vaccines in childhood, Tdap provided moderate protection against pertussis during the first year and then waned rapidly so that litle protection remained 2-3 years after vaccination.
“Waning immunity is seen for other vaccines, yet disease control can often be maintained in a population provided vaccine coverage is high enough in the right age groups. This is not the case for pertussis,” authors said in the study. <snip> Researchers found Tdap vaccine effectiveness was 68.8% during the first year after vaccination, 56.9% the second year, 25.2% the third year and 8.9% in year four.
[quote=suzy_q2010;43757528]How do you know for sure that no one who comes in contact with your baby has hepatitis B? Many who do are unaware of it.
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Maybe you can't, and so you should get your kids Hep B. I could, so I didn't.
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The point is that immunizing young children reduces the risk of exposure of adults.
If adults want to avoid chicken pox they can get vaccinated.
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The decision to start hepatitis B vaccine at birth was not made in a vacuum. It is based on the known epidemiology of the disease: that many children who are infected have had no contact with anyone known to have hepatitis B.
That's not actually true. It has reduced the rate of chronic Hep B, but every analysis I've read shows a direct link between infected people and the baby catching it. You don't just all of a sudden test positive for Hep B without any exposure or risk factors.
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The problem is that "alternative" vaccine schedules have not been shown to be safer than the standard schedule. All they do is leave kids at risk of getting VPDs for a longer period of time. Even alternative schedule guru "Dr. Bob" Sears admits that.
Well, you'll have to take that up with the various public health departments who've decided on the 'alternative'(what condescension and arrogance!) schedules.
Yes, that is true. That's why for infants whose every contact is Hep B negative and immunised, the vaccine is unnecessary. Put them in daycare or school and their risk changes. But for babies in families of hep B negative people it's not necessary. That's why no one gave me any grief when I declined it.
True, but misleading. The schedule has them get it around 12 -18 months. At age four or five they are not adults.
Would you disagree then that there are good reasons to delay those vaccines for my family until we actually face a risk of exposure?
It is counterproductive to not be honest and factual when arguing with the antivaxxers. By pretending all vaccines are identical and that immunisation schedules are set in stone you open yourself to being caught out in an untruth, and that will lead them to doubt everything else you say. Tell someone the flu vax is the same importance as the HiB vax and they will decide the HiB is as crap as the flu, and that having hib is like having the flu. We don't need to generalise or omit facts, because the data are on our side.
The Hep B series takes 6 months to complete. As a long time pediatric nurse, now retired, I cannot tell you how many parents of newborns I've seen who said they had no plans to go back to work, only to come in at 2 months (or sooner) with a daycare form to be filled out. "The best laid plans" as they say. Layoffs happen. Divorce happens. Lots of things happen.
I'm not sure what you think is misleading. I put that stat in there about adults and chickenpox to show that adult deaths do happen, and that the information that adults get sicker than kids with chickenpox is true. Prior to the vaccine, virtually all children got chickenpox, meaning about 3 million cases a year in the US. About 50 died. Only a few adults got it every year, as most had it as kids. Yet still about 50 died, a much higher death rate. The point is that a child in this day and age may never get exposed to wild chickenpox, and become an adult without any immunity. That's the parents' fault. There was a young woman who worked at our front desk who was the "victim" of such a parental decision. Every time a kid came in with suspected chickenpox, she had to leave the area. Of course, that didn't protect her against a kid who came in with "rash" and the rash turned out to be chickenpox. Now granted, her problem could have been solved by her getting vaccinated. But you see the point. Once a person is of age to consent, they can make their own decision. But, as human nature goes, it's easy to put off unpleasant stuff like getting a shot, though as shots go, this one isn't bad. So then maybe you're exposed to someone with shingles and "bingo". What if you're planning to wait till age 4 or 5 and in the meantime Grandma comes down with shingles and exposes your child to the chickenpox virus?
Yes, I disagree, because you never know when that will happen.
What did I say that was dishonest or unfacutal?
When did I "pretend" anything? I do not think there are any vaccines in the current schedule you should not receive. There are no vaccine-preventable diseases I would suggest that any child get.
Actually, more people are hospitalized with the flu, and die from it, than Hib meningitis. I don't have some list of vaccines in order of priority. I think it's important to get all of them, on time.
Last edited by Katarina Witt; 04-18-2016 at 05:20 PM..
That's not actually true. It has reduced the rate of chronic Hep B, but every analysis I've read shows a direct link between infected people and the baby catching it. You don't just all of a sudden test positive for Hep B without any exposure or risk factors.
30% of Hep B cases have no known transmission source, despite careful case investigation. That means there are some things about Hep B transmission that we don't know yet. http://www.immunize.org/catg.d/p2100.pdf
Your link won't open for me. I'd love to see the study (and who funded it) that somehow trumps all of the previous studies over the years showing that the mutation has caused the vaccine to not work for a lot of people. Does this study also trump all of the studies showing that pertussis immunity wanes quickly post vaccination and people who are fully vaccinated don't stay protected very long?
"Our DTaP and Tdap VE estimates remain similar to those found in other settings, despite high prevalence of pertactin deficiency in Vermont, suggesting these vaccines continue to be protective against reported pertussis disease."
Protection wanes. It does not disappear for every single person who is vaccinated. If it did, we would have even more cases than we do.
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It's not very caring to force or coerce people into getting injections into their body against their wishes. What other states have not seen measles outbreaks?
Absolutely. People who do not vaccinate do not care if they make other people get sick. There is one poster here who is very vocal in her opinion that she could not care less about others.
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Your slight increase from a handful of people who chose not to vaccinate is not great enough to warrant such extreme measures such as you have proposed in this thread. Lawsuits are way out of line unless you are trying to sue bacteria or a virus.
The problem is that it is more than a handful of people who are choosing not to vaccinate. In some locations, it's too few to maintain herd immunity.
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Epidemiology 101 doesn't trump common sense 101 which is the obvious fact that there cannot be a "patient zero" since that "patient zero" caught the illness from someone else. Unless of course you are saying that people can spontaneously create disease in their bodies. I have been exposed by vaccinated people to the flu. They told me that they had the flu and that they had been vaccinated.
Common sense has to be left at the door to the science laboratory. It can be misleading and cannot be trusted.
"Patient zero" by definition is the first identified person in an outbreak in a specific location.
Yes, someone who is vaccinated can still get the flu. However, you are more likely to be exposed to someone who got the flu and was not vaccinated, since two thirds of those who are vaccinated do not get it. Throughout the threads that have discussed vaccines you have demonstrated again and again that you do not understand the concept of risk. If you are vaccinated against flu, with the exception of years when the most common circulating strain was not included in the vaccine, you are about 60% less likely to get the flu if you take the vaccine.
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A lot of peds don't even have well and sick areas in their waiting room. If they make their policy clear then they could do a lot to prevent illness from spreading. Surely they know that some of their patients will be sick considering doctors sometimes see sick patients. It's asinine to insist that we vaccinate everyone without addressing lower hanging fruit such as this. It says a lot about the vaccine agenda that is being pushed so hard.
Pediatricians try. They really do. Parents still march in with sick kids. One measles outbreak started with one of "Dr. Bob's" own patients.
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So where did the source get the illness from? How did they get it into their body? Your the expert right? Explain, preferably without the insults and links to books on Amazon.
"Patient Zero" is the first identified patient in an outbreak in a specific location. The person that Patient Zero got the disease from may be on a different continent, such as with measles. From the standpoint of epidemiology and controlling the outbreak traced to Patient Zero, who he got it from is irrelevant. The travel history usually lets the epidemiologist know that the person who infected Patient Zero is not going to infect anyone else in the outbreak under consideration.
I am sorry that you cannot understand that, but I reiterate that reading a bit about epidemiology would be valuable and perhaps correct the misconceptions that you have about the spread of VPDs.
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Then why not focus on that group first? Instead of only focusing on babies and thinking about lawsuits.
Because these infections make babies disproportionately sicker. Young infants are more likely to die from them.
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Protecting the right to not vaccinate and be coerced by punitive measures is not whining. When you and your fellow pushers quit trying to force your way down everyone's throats you will stop hearing from me on this topic.
You still have the right to refuse vaccines, in every state in the union, including California, Mississippi, and West Virginia.
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Originally Posted by MissTerri
Got this to open and I linked to the study that concludes the following: You and the CDC are the ones making the claim that this study suggests that the current vaccine prevents pertussis against both strains in spite of the fact the study does not make this claim at all.
Again you misinterpret. People who have vaccine failures may be more likely to have a mutated strain. The majority of vaccinated people are not getting infected with any strain, mutated or not.
Yes, pertussis immunity wanes, but it does not completely disappear for everyone. If it did, we would see many more cases of whooping cough than we do. Yes, we need a better pertussis vaccine. However, the biggest risk factor for pertussis is not being vaccinated at all.
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Originally Posted by WildColonialGirl
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Originally Posted by suzy_q2010
How do you know for sure that no one who comes in contact with your baby has hepatitis B? Many who do are unaware of it.
Maybe you can't, and so you should get your kids Hep B. I could, so I didn't.
Perhaps if every single person in your family has been vaccinated or tested for hepatitis B you can be sure. How about friends and neighbors? The neighbor's child who goes to day care even if yours does not? Can you honestly say you know the hepatitis B status of everyone who might come in contact with your child?
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If adults want to avoid chicken pox they can get vaccinated.
If they know they have never had chickenpox, they should. The fact remains that when we started vaccinating children for chickenpox, the incidence of cases in adults dropped, too, even though adults were not getting the vaccine.
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That's not actually true. It has reduced the rate of chronic Hep B, but every analysis I've read shows a direct link between infected people and the baby catching it. You don't just all of a sudden test positive for Hep B without any exposure or risk factors.
Obviously you have to catch it from someone, but for children who that someone is may never be identified.
Well, you'll have to take that up with the various public health departments who've decided on the 'alternative'(what condescension and arrogance!) schedules.
"Alternative Schedules" is what they are called by the people who want them.
While some public health departments may cave in and vaccinate on whatever schedule a parent wants, I would be surprised if any actually routinely use such schedules. I would be interested in knowing where they are.
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Originally posted by MissTerri:
What other states have not seen measles outbreaks?
It's not just outbreaks, which involve more then one person. It's cases. MS and W. Va. have not had any cases at all since the early to mid 1990s.
Not every case leads to an outbreak, and in highly vaccinated states like those two, one case would probably not cause an outbreak, say if a traveler with measles came from another country.
Measles cases have been seen everywhere else, from Alaska to Florida and Hawaii.
Last edited by suzy_q2010; 04-18-2016 at 06:38 PM..
From Miss Terri: A lot of peds don't even have well and sick areas in their waiting room. If they make their policy clear then they could do a lot to prevent illness from spreading. Surely they know that some of their patients will be sick considering doctors sometimes see sick patients. It's asinine to insist that we vaccinate everyone without addressing lower hanging fruit such as this. It says a lot about the vaccine agenda that is being pushed so hard.
Pediatricians try. They really do. Parents still march in with sick kids. One measles outbreak started with one of "Dr. Bob's" own patients.
Too true! My office had/has a sick and well side. However, everyone has to check in with the front desk before they go to their side. And sometimes parents just don't care. I remember one time when I was bringing back a teen with suspected pertussis. He was on the well side with his mother sitting next to a newborn! I rarely said anything in situations like that, but this time I spoke up and said, "I thought I'd find you on the sick side!" The mom's response? "We don't know for sure he has pertussis"! Well, h*ll! He was for sure sick with something or she wouldn't have brought him in! Another problem is that even if the sick kids are all sitting together on the sick side, they can still spread illness to each other!
"Patient Zero" is the first identified patient in an outbreak in a specific location. The person that Patient Zero got the disease from may be on a different continent, such as with measles. From the standpoint of epidemiology and controlling the outbreak traced to Patient Zero, who he got it from is irrelevant. The travel history usually lets the epidemiologist know that the person who infected Patient Zero is not going to infect anyone else in the outbreak under consideration.
I am sorry that you cannot understand that, but I reiterate that reading a bit about epidemiology would be valuable and perhaps correct the misconceptions that you have about the spread of VPDs.
Because these infections make babies disproportionately sicker. Young infants are more likely to die from them.
You still have the right to refuse vaccines, in every state in the union, including California, Mississippi, and West Virginia.
Again you misinterpret. People who have vaccine failures may be more likely to have a mutated strain. The majority of vaccinated people are not getting infected with any strain, mutated or not.
Yes, pertussis immunity wanes, but it does not completely disappear for everyone. If it did, we would see many more cases of whooping cough than we do. Yes, we need a better pertussis vaccine. However, the biggest risk factor for pertussis is not being vaccinated at all.
Immunity to pertussis disease wanes too, sometimes faster than vaccine-induced immunity.
Perhaps if every single person in your family has been vaccinated or tested for hepatitis B you can be sure. How about friends and neighbors? The neighbor's child who goes to day care even if yours does not? Can you honestly say you know the hepatitis B status of everyone who might come in contact with your child?
Exactly! What about the babysitter you leave your kids with to go out to dinner with your husband?
If they know they have never had chickenpox, they should. The fact remains that when we started vaccinating children for chickenpox, the incidence of cases in adults dropped, too, even though adults were not getting the vaccine.
Obviously you have to catch it from someone, but for children who that someone is may never be identified.
"Alternative Schedules" is what they are called by the people who want them.
While some public health departments may cave in and vaccinate on whatever schedule a parent wants, I would be surprised if any actually routinely use such schedules. I would be interested in knowing where they are.
Speaking from my own experience, health departments/physician's offices will go along with what the patient wants, but they don't recommend alternative schedules. Some will tell the patients that outright, some won't.
Speaking from my own experience, health departments/physician's offices will go along with what the patient wants, but they don't recommend alternative schedules. Some will tell the patients that outright, some won't.
And some pediatricians are refusing to see children whose parents refuse vaccinations. They do not want Patient Zero in their offices.
Has any law been established regarding non-vaccinated children who become the center of an epidemic?
If polio, mumps, rubella, whooping cough, etc begin to claim lives again, can the parents of the children who began spreading the disease be held liable to pay financial restitution to the families of those they made ill?
I haven't paid much attention to this anti-vaxxing phenomenon until a couple days ago Robert Deniro mentioned that his wife noticed their child develop autistic symptoms overnight after receiving a vaccine with mercury as a basic ingredient in it.
Robert Deniro is a fairly level-headed man.
Perhaps some children in very rare cases really are developing autism after vaccination.
As for my kids, they've all been 100% vaccinated with no problems. I'm pro-vaccination.
If indeed some children are developing autism over this, I hate to say it but isn't it better to have a rare child here & there with autism than an epidemic outbreak of horribly crippling, deadly diseases?
How can there be an epidemic outbreak of "horribly crippling, deadly diseases" if the other kids are all vaccinated?
The more important question is if vaccines are so safe, why did Big Pharma spend millions lobbying congress to get a law passed making them exempt from lawsuits by family's devastated by their vaccines?
Then there's the vaccines that you don't actually need. Last time I went to the doctor and we talked about vaccines, she asked me which I wanted and I said as few as necessary. With each vaccine I asked what it was, if I could live without it and what was actually in it. With Tetanus she said "since you've already had the tetanus shot, you don't actually need this, but we like to give it to people anyhow. If you step on a rusty nail or start getting tetanus, you could just come in and get the vaccine after-the-fact.". Why on earth would you pump that into yourself or your child if it's not even necessary? Remember the big Disney measles hysteria last year? How many Americans died from that? Not one. The US in fact had one measles death in the past 12 years and that of course was someone who didn't have the vaccine. People were losing their minds. Go back and read the C-D archives. They wanted the kids kicked out of schools, banned from all public buildings and spaces. Ostracized. Shunned. They were hysterical. How about the flu vaccine? Unless you're sick or have compromised immune system there's no need for that shot either. HPV? Remember when Rick Perry down in Texas tried to mandate that every 13 y/o girl in the state must have that vaccine? He gave that contract exclusively to Merck. Turned out Perry's #1 campaign contributor was Merck. Go figure. Then it turned out his Super Pac Manager and long time assistant was also a Merck rep. If the science is so strong, why do they have to stoop to that level to force it on those girls?
I actually consider myself a moderate on the subject. I take most vaccines and will let my kids take most. What I won't do is blindly trust science paid for by giant pharma corporations or mock/label those who're skeptical of vaccines.
And some pediatricians are refusing to see children whose parents refuse vaccinations. They do not want Patient Zero in their offices.
Ask your doctor point blank if they receive a spiff on the vaccines they sell? I think it's a bad idea to pay doctors by the injection.
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