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Anyways I am not convinced cte causes depression and suicide it's like scare tactics. Maybe the ex NFL players are depressed because they are not playing football anymore maybe some of them could never convert to normal life and they are blaming it on cte . I get depressed sometimnes because I miss the navy and my friends in the navy and the meaning I had in life or should I say I get depressed because I got multiple concussions.... I am not sure need more research
I think you are misinterpreting what "cause" means. Suicide is a CHOICE a desperate person makes if they feel they have no future, are mortally frightened, increasingly out of control, and hopeless. A person who is suffering from cancer, MS, ALS, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, lupus, diabetes, AIDS, clinical depression (may not have anything to do with concussions), and other terrible diagnoses could get to a point where they see nothing bearable in the future. Any one of them may choose suicide, but I doubt anyone would say their disease CAUSED suicide. The physical and cognitive problems are what CTE damage "causes". If the person is lucky they get proper care and support. They may never end up committing suicide. I don't think anyone claims CTE is an automatic unalterable link between the two.
The research that seems to be needed includes:
1. How to prevent CTE either through protective equipment or change in work or sports culture (such as prohibiting brutal tackling just to prevent the stupid ball from reaching a goal)
2. How to recognize it in its earliest stages when progression could be halted
3. How to treat someone who already has symptoms before they are completely disabled
The issue is many had concussions but not many were enough to bring about serious side effects or have them out for weeks on end like say Dale Jr in NASCAR.
Say every football player has cte I am arguing it ius nothing in comparisons to the millions if Americans that may have it and the impact it us having on our society. Why just focus on football players maybe there needs to be education for everyone on the dangers of concussions maybe I would have been more carefully on some of the things I did
Why are so bent out of shape on this issue?
You call for more focus on concussions for everyone but that is precisely the effect the NFL policies are having. Whereas before you were expected to "walk it off" now it is taken seriously and regarded as a health concern. Every Sunday millions of football fans watch TV and see this.
And while lots of people suffer concussions, they don't often suffer repeated concussions in a short time frame. Recovery from a concussion is very high if you get prompt treatment and avoid reinjury. That is what NFL policy is intended to do.
I feel that these test for NFL players has no internal validity. What if the player is depressed because a loss of solidarity and being part of a team? Then they get older and get major depression but they also have cte and maybe the depression was not from the cte. I have not found one but a random sample study of general population linking concussion to depression and showing the number of cases would help. The NFL most famous study was of suspected cte cases what if they did a random sample? What if the random sample was only 2 out of 100 players. I know it may be hard to do a random sample of dead NFL players but maybe can do of general population.
I have a theory that loss of solidarity and being a part of something can cause same effects on brain .
1. You don't have a theory. You have an opinion. There's a huge difference. One is scientific, the other is not.
2. In a whole string of posts you show that you are not open to changing your mind based on...well...anything.
3. Any football player that tells someone, "Well I never thought about my head gettin' knocked around", is simply lying. Or they're totally stupid.
4. Same in boxing, a sport I happen to like. And we've all heard of punch drunk fighters.
I believe the NFL concussion problem is over hyped
False.
The NFL concussion issue was under the radar until January 2007 when "HBO Sports With Bryant Gumbel" did two stories-one about the NFL disability issue and another about concussions in general. In the second, they had an interview with long time Baltimore Colt and former president of the NFL Players Association, that would be John Mackey.
That 15 minute seg regarding the disability issue was the opening on season 13 of "Real Sports." It showed two players, Conrad Dobler and Johnny Cooks, who were barely moving-and I mean barely. Newly shrined HOF member Harry Carson and HOFer Mike Ditka provided more commentary on the disability issue. Later in the season was a seg on John Mackey and it was sobering to say the least.
This has been the NFL's "dirty little secret" for years. Actually decades. In 2007 the NFL Players Association president was Gene Upshaw, who played for the Raiders for 14 seasons and was a HOFer. You would think that Upshaw would fight for his men. Isn't that what unions do? Huh? You would think.
In that article this is Gene Upshaw's response from a 2006 article in the Charlotte Observer to players who have been denied disability benefits-- " The bottom line is I don't work for them (retired players.) They don't hire me and they can't fire me. They can complain about me all day long. But the active players have the vote. That's who pays my salary."
Google in----New York Daily News January 21, 2007.--"NFL's Secret Shame-League, Players association turns back on down and outsiders."
What they mean by outsiders are retired players. As they are retired players they are not active in union matters.
I taped that 15 minute seg several times on VHS tapes (yep, I'm old). I sent one to Irv Moss, senior sports writer of The Denver Post. Later, Post sports writer Mike Klis did a half page story on it after some follow up.
Google in: Denver Post August 31,2007 article-Mike Klis- "Retired NFL Players Taking Fight For Benefits to Washington."
I'll get into the disabilty/concussion issue of the poster boy of concussions--Mike Webster. Post#2 coming tomorrow.
My thanks for Toosie for holding this thread up for me.
Mike Webster played offensive center for the Pittsburgh Steelers and the Kansas City Chiefs for 15 seasons, from 1974 to 1989. Offensive and defensive linemen see contact for 60 full minutes. They hit and get hit on every play. Every play. there was a stretch in his career where he played 150 straight games, he was an iron man in the true sense of the word. He was a 9 time pro bowler, a 7 time first team all pro, and ranked 75th in the Sporting News "Greatest 100 Players In NFL History."
By the time Webster's career was over he had stated in a couple interviews that he was starting to get "a little fuzzy" with things. Still, he tried different things to feed his family. Anything he tried failed, and failed miserably. Even before his NFL induction speech at the Pro Football HOF in Canton he admitted he was having difficulty with more than just "little things." By this time he was living out of his pickup and camper.
I remember very well the interview that Webster had with Al Michaels and Dan Dierdorf at one of the Monday Night Football halftimes a year earlier. Both Michaels and Dierdorf asked questions on a variety of football related subjects and each question came back with answers that were troubling. In one answer Webster was talking about how he was making do living in his camper. I was stunned by this interview. In the meanwhile I was thinking to myself--"How do they wrap up this interview QUICKLY?" Half times generally are a ten minute break. from the game. I can't imagine how Webster's wife and children felt after seeing this on the tube. It was also clear to me that Michaels and Dierdorf were sort of stunned by his answers. Whoever arranged this interview wasn't aware of where Webster was at health wise. I would imagine only Webster's family, close friends, and teammates knew. That next morning ESPN and other cable networks were all over this story.
And I wish I could find a you tube on this interview. I couldn't.
Civil Action WDQ-04-CV-1606----Estate of Mike Webster vs. Bert Bell/Pete Rozelle NFL Disability retirement.
Shortly after Webster retired his own world was unraveling on him. A couple businesses he got involved in failed miserably. Investments he had made went south. He had recurring headaches, had problems at home, arguments with his wife, abusive to his kids. The letters CTE didn't mean squat to him, for that matter he couldn't tell you what the alphabet was unless he read it off a script. High level attorneys Cy Smith and Bob Fitzsimmons went to bat for him and battled. And battled. This case went all the way to the U.S. Court Of Appeals where the court unanimously ruled that the NFL "abused its discretion." And that they "ignored their own evidence, including the report from their own doctor." For years Webster was sent to doctors including the NFL's own doctors who claimed him to be totally disabled. And up to 2005 they had still denied him. The fight against the NFL regarding the suit started in 1999. In late 2005 the NFL finally settled with Webster's family, as Webster had passed away in 2002. The Webster's family win was the first ruling by an appeals court against an NFL disability award.
And that is what started the bell rolling regarding NFL retired players who couldn't hold down jobs, who couldn't walk without pain, who couldn't sit or stand without pain, and most importantly and the cruelest condition to be in, couldn't function mentally on their own.
The average person does not get anywhere near as many concussions as a football player - the average person does not get into brutal bar fights or go into the military, for example. Nothing but moving the goal posts and pretending concussion "aren't an issue" because "oh, no - mah football might be affected by science and facts!"
The bigger problem with all of this is that the football concussions are TOTALLY UNNECESSARY. You can't prevent concussions from car accidents, but smashing your car into somebody else's is not part of the "sport" of driving everyday - while doing the same type of thing IS part of football.
I can't help but wonder if this thread is a preview of what's to come as the concussion issue starts to drag down the NFL. We'll probably see more "patriotic" science-deniers crawl out of the woodwork to pretend concussions aren't bad for you, or "everyone gets lots of them," or "back in mah day, you just walked them off!" to attempt to deny the very real health risks associated with football. More misplaced "patriotism," just like climate change deniers, evolution deniers, etc.
The average person does not get anywhere near as many concussions as a football player - the average person does not get into brutal bar fights or go into the military, for example. Nothing but moving the goal posts and pretending concussion "aren't an issue" because "oh, no - mah football might be affected by science and facts!"
The bigger problem with all of this is that the football concussions are TOTALLY UNNECESSARY. You can't prevent concussions from car accidents, but smashing your car into somebody else's is not part of the "sport" of driving everyday - while doing the same type of thing IS part of football.
I can't help but wonder if this thread is a preview of what's to come as the concussion issue starts to drag down the NFL. We'll probably see more "patriotic" science-deniers crawl out of the woodwork to pretend concussions aren't bad for you, or "everyone gets lots of them," or "back in mah day, you just walked them off!" to attempt to deny the very real health risks associated with football. More misplaced "patriotism," just like climate change deniers, evolution deniers, etc.
I think the problem is the people who think that there is not a problem because they played and had no issue so they don't understand what this issue is. That is similar in most cases. People are used to their personal experiences and nothing else.
I think the problem is the people who think that there is not a problem because they played and had no issue so they don't understand what this issue is. That is similar in most cases. People are used to their personal experiences and nothing else.
There's some of that, certainly, but I'm sure given time it'll turn into a "football is Americuh, and those liberals want to take it away!" type of nonsense, followed by science denial, a response that is common these days. Too many people have too much of their sense of self-value tied up in worthless things like the sports or team they love, the huge trunk they need to drive, etc.
There's some of that, certainly, but I'm sure given time it'll turn into a "football is Americuh, and those liberals want to take it away!" type of nonsense, followed by science denial, a response that is common these days. Too many people have too much of their sense of self-value tied up in worthless things like the sports or team they love, the huge trunk they need to drive, etc.
This is the Great debates forum. I'm debating the OP regarding his claim of the NFL concussion issue as being over hyped. This post is not adding anything to the debate.
I'm not making any of this stuff up. Regarding the post regarding Mike Webster, do a web search. You'll see article after article after article. And it's not pretty.
Regarding the NFL disability issue, that ties in with
Wikipedia--"List Of NFL players With Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy." It ties in with the NFL disability pension program which is a mess, has been a mess, and was thankfully exposed by Bryant Gumbel, who IMO started the ball rolling on this.
The list of NFL players who have joined in the lawsuit according to Wiki is around 4500, according to the article.
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