Should U.S. Put Its Interests Before "World" - Examples Jerusalem as Capital, Paris Accords? (states, support)
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Enough with the personal nastiness.
If that's the case why, between 1949 and June 2, 1967 was there not a visit by a single clerical or religious leader to the West Bank or Gaza? And why if the holy sites were the objective was the 1949-67 partition acceptable to them? It obviously wasn't or they wouldn't have invaded. Remember, the had Al Aksa Mosque/Dome of the Rock/Temple Mount. And why couldn't Jews visit the Kotel? Muslims now come and go freely from Al Aksa Mosque/Dome of the Rock/Temple Mount.
Godwin's law, and the objective of the Nazi employment was death. The purpose of the Zionist's employment was to get work done.
See thread Is Israel of Strategic Value to the U.S. and the West? I repeat myself.
It is not racist to say that certain systems don't work well.
Is plowing planes into buildings "interference"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Guard
Telling someone what source they can't use and not providing and sources yourself is nasty. You personally have basically called me a racist in this thread just because I do not see the reason to pay Egypty, Israel and the Palestinian authority billions of dollars a year. Physician heal thyself.
Without religion what claim is there to a Jewish state. Remember Jews are not a race, but religious followers.
Access to the holy sites still seems to be a big issue between all 3 of the major religions there and a pawn that all sides use. I am not religious so it is not an issue I care about but I do care about the violence that results. I am pretty sure the Nazi's wanted that work done and tried to expand the program at the end.
It is not racist to not wish to pay a country billions of dollars but that did not stop you.
I think it is a result of the interference. And I can say for certain that less people died in the attacks on 9/11 than what resulted from it. Not that I have problem with that. I personally believe that Al Quida did not excpect the September attacks to be as successful as they were and when they saw it I bet a lot of A-Holes puckered up.
These two posts are emblematic of a fact-free exchange on the topic of Israel/Palestine & the US role therein.
Let's start with a little history, then add a little US foreign policy.
Pre-WWI: Ottoman Empire rules Palestine, along with most of the present-day Middle East (Palestine was under the rule of one or another Muslim Dynasty starting in the mid-600s until after WWI, interrupted only by a little under a century of Crusader rule). The Ottoman Empire is multi-ethnic, multi-lingual, and multi-religious. In the early 20th century, about 20% of the Ottoman population was non-Muslim (primarily Christians & Jews). In Palestine, more specifically, the population was ~80-90% Muslim, with the remainder split almost evenly between Christians & Jews. There were restrictions on the political rights of non-Muslims, but religious rights were retained and religious minorities were able to build lives in the Ottoman Empire.
Over 1000 miles away, in Central & Eastern Europe, pogroms against Jews intensify in the 19th century, moving into the 20th century. Just before the turn of the century, a writer & intellectual, Theodore Herzl (born in Hungary) responds to the rising violence and discrimination against Jews by arguing for a Jewish State (destination flexible--both Palestine & Argentina are proposed), supercharging an existing zionist movement. Herzl is among a group of prominent European Zionists who settle on Palestine as the appropriate location for a Jewish State and work diplomatically towards that end.
A note about Ottoman law: it was prohibited for landowners to throw tenants off of subsistence land. Feudal landowners generally took payment from peasant farmers for their above-subsistence production (this is a simplification).
WWI resulted in the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire, and the creation of British and French mandates ruling over the Middle East. The Mandate for Palestine was British. The inhabitants of Palestine were not exactly thrilled by British rule, and there were repeated uprisings. Under the British Mandate, property rights are upended in Palestine. Where once a feudal lord had a type of ownership (right to, essentially, tax peasant farmers), and farmers had a different type of ownership (essentially possessory ownership), now unified title was implemented. The British, as you might imagine, chose to unify title in the hands of the feudal owner as opposed to the peasant owner.
Zionist charities--starting in the 19th century, but intensifying under the British Mandate--purchased feudal (then unified) title to lands in Palestine. The largest source of tension with the British Mandate government was probably the physical ejection of peasants from land--particularly as Zionist settlers. There were a series of uprisings in the 1920s, then a broader armed conflict in the 1930s. Note that, by 1945, only about 5% of Mandatory Palestine's land had been purchased by Zionist settlers. While land ownership was still low, Jewish migration to Palestine increased dramatically in the 1930s and 1940s.
Again, over 1000 miles away, anti-Jewish sentiment boiled in Europe, especially Central and Eastern Europe. Hitler and the Nazi party took power in 1932. They started the Holocaust in Nazi-occupied territories, killing 6 million Jews (and ~9-11 million other victims) in Europe.
As WWII ended, Zionist settlers began a campaign of armed resistance to the British Mandate in Palestine. Britain decides to concede Mandatory Palestine, and the newly-formed United Nations decides, in 1947, to partition the Mandate into a Jewish State and an Arab State, with international governance of Jerusalem. The partition required each State to offer full political and civil rights to all persons in the territories. The partition plan was opposed by Arab States (the partition plan granted 56% of the Mandate's lands to the Jewish State) and by the Arabs we now know as Palestinians (who lived in Palestine pre-partition).
The 1947 plan was already creating conflict on the ground when Britain stated it would end its Mandate government in 1948. What had been a brewing civil war in 1947 became an international war in 1948 when Britain left what had been Palestine, and David Ben-Gurion declared a Jewish State of Eretz-Israel. Thus came the 1948 Arab-Israeli war. After that war, Israel asserted claim to ~77% of Mandate Palestine's lands. Approximately 750,000 Palestinian Arabs were expelled/fled.
These bits of history are important to understanding the dispute that remains today between Israel and the Palestinians.
What is the US interest in this bit of land? Geopolitics. This bit of history I just summarized inflamed opinion in Arab, Persian, and Turkish territories. Entire political movements draw on this perceived injustice to obtain public support. The continued stasis of Israel/Palestine is a continued source of tension with Arab States, with Iran, and with Turkey. A negotiated settlement of the conflict will unlock new avenues in a region that continues to be a source of military and political conflict (the prime source, really). The US, as the world's most powerful country and the prime beneficiary of global trade, will benefit from greater stability in the Middle East. Especially because the absence of an Israel/Palestine conflict will undermine some of the appeal of Islamists--especially those who engage in international terrorism.
What is the US interest in this bit of land? Geopolitics. This bit of history I just summarized inflamed opinion in Arab, Persian, and Turkish territories. Entire political movements draw on this perceived injustice to obtain public support. The continued stasis of Israel/Palestine is a continued source of tension with Arab States, with Iran, and with Turkey. A negotiated settlement of the conflict will unlock new avenues in a region that continues to be a source of military and political conflict (the prime source, really). The US, as the world's most powerful country and the prime beneficiary of global trade, will benefit from greater stability in the Middle East. Especially because the absence of an Israel/Palestine conflict will undermine some of the appeal of Islamists--especially those who engage in international terrorism.
These two posts are emblematic of a fact-free exchange on the topic of Israel/Palestine & the US role therein.
Let's start with a little history, then add a little US foreign policy.
Pre-WWI: Ottoman Empire rules Palestine, along with most of the present-day Middle East (Palestine was under the rule of one or another Muslim Dynasty starting in the mid-600s until after WWI, interrupted only by a little under a century of Crusader rule). The Ottoman Empire is multi-ethnic, multi-lingual, and multi-religious. In the early 20th century, about 20% of the Ottoman population was non-Muslim (primarily Christians & Jews). In Palestine, more specifically, the population was ~80-90% Muslim, with the remainder split almost evenly between Christians & Jews. There were restrictions on the political rights of non-Muslims, but religious rights were retained and religious minorities were able to build lives in the Ottoman Empire.
Over 1000 miles away, in Central & Eastern Europe, pogroms against Jews intensify in the 19th century, moving into the 20th century. Just before the turn of the century, a writer & intellectual, Theodore Herzl (born in Hungary) responds to the rising violence and discrimination against Jews by arguing for a Jewish State (destination flexible--both Palestine & Argentina are proposed), supercharging an existing zionist movement. Herzl is among a group of prominent European Zionists who settle on Palestine as the appropriate location for a Jewish State and work diplomatically towards that end.
A note about Ottoman law: it was prohibited for landowners to throw tenants off of subsistence land. Feudal landowners generally took payment from peasant farmers for their above-subsistence production (this is a simplification).
WWI resulted in the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire, and the creation of British and French mandates ruling over the Middle East. The Mandate for Palestine was British. The inhabitants of Palestine were not exactly thrilled by British rule, and there were repeated uprisings. Under the British Mandate, property rights are upended in Palestine. Where once a feudal lord had a type of ownership (right to, essentially, tax peasant farmers), and farmers had a different type of ownership (essentially possessory ownership), now unified title was implemented. The British, as you might imagine, chose to unify title in the hands of the feudal owner as opposed to the peasant owner.
Zionist charities--starting in the 19th century, but intensifying under the British Mandate--purchased feudal (then unified) title to lands in Palestine. The largest source of tension with the British Mandate government was probably the physical ejection of peasants from land--particularly as Zionist settlers. There were a series of uprisings in the 1920s, then a broader armed conflict in the 1930s. Note that, by 1945, only about 5% of Mandatory Palestine's land had been purchased by Zionist settlers. While land ownership was still low, Jewish migration to Palestine increased dramatically in the 1930s and 1940s.
Again, over 1000 miles away, anti-Jewish sentiment boiled in Europe, especially Central and Eastern Europe. Hitler and the Nazi party took power in 1932. They started the Holocaust in Nazi-occupied territories, killing 6 million Jews (and ~9-11 million other victims) in Europe.
As WWII ended, Zionist settlers began a campaign of armed resistance to the British Mandate in Palestine. Britain decides to concede Mandatory Palestine, and the newly-formed United Nations decides, in 1947, to partition the Mandate into a Jewish State and an Arab State, with international governance of Jerusalem. The partition required each State to offer full political and civil rights to all persons in the territories. The partition plan was opposed by Arab States (the partition plan granted 56% of the Mandate's lands to the Jewish State) and by the Arabs we now know as Palestinians (who lived in Palestine pre-partition).
The 1947 plan was already creating conflict on the ground when Britain stated it would end its Mandate government in 1948. What had been a brewing civil war in 1947 became an international war in 1948 when Britain left what had been Palestine, and David Ben-Gurion declared a Jewish State of Eretz-Israel. Thus came the 1948 Arab-Israeli war. After that war, Israel asserted claim to ~77% of Mandate Palestine's lands. Approximately 750,000 Palestinian Arabs were expelled/fled.
These bits of history are important to understanding the dispute that remains today between Israel and the Palestinians.
What is the US interest in this bit of land? Geopolitics. This bit of history I just summarized inflamed opinion in Arab, Persian, and Turkish territories. Entire political movements draw on this perceived injustice to obtain public support. The continued stasis of Israel/Palestine is a continued source of tension with Arab States, with Iran, and with Turkey. A negotiated settlement of the conflict will unlock new avenues in a region that continues to be a source of military and political conflict (the prime source, really). The US, as the world's most powerful country and the prime beneficiary of global trade, will benefit from greater stability in the Middle East. Especially because the absence of an Israel/Palestine conflict will undermine some of the appeal of Islamists--especially those who engage in international terrorism.
So perhaps this new Palestinian charter, which, finally, softens the stance on wiping out Israel and suggests physical borders that might be agreeable, could be something that ends this conflict once and for all. Or at least puts it on a footing for future stability. Stranger things have happened. After all, we nuked Hiroshima in the 1940s and yet were enthusiastically trading with Japan in the 1960s. Today, with the exception of some 90 somethings who were there and some 70 somethings who were their kids, it's almost as if it never happened.
One force that will prevent peace in the long run is the juxtaposition of an inferior theocratic State with Israel. Unless the Palestinians were to revolutionize their thinking and tone down their Islamic-ness and adopt secular freedom and some form of market economy, they will flounder in the shadow of Israeli success even if they are politically at peace. Envy is a powerful force, as we see in the American Left. This could have an undermining effect. It will be in Israel's interest to "fix" Palestine philosophically. Perhaps it can be done simply by osmosis following the intensive economic interaction likely to take place post conflict.
So perhaps this new Palestinian charter, which, finally, softens the stance on wiping out Israel and suggests physical borders that might be agreeable, could be something that ends this conflict once and for all. Or at least puts it on a footing for future stability. Stranger things have happened. After all, we nuked Hiroshima in the 1940s and yet were enthusiastically trading with Japan in the 1960s. Today, with the exception of some 90 somethings who were there and some 70 somethings who were their kids, it's almost as if it never happened.
One force that will prevent peace in the long run is the juxtaposition of an inferior theocratic State with Israel. Unless the Palestinians were to revolutionize their thinking and tone down their Islamic-ness and adopt secular freedom and some form of market economy, they will flounder in the shadow of Israeli success even if they are politically at peace. Envy is a powerful force, as we see in the American Right. This could have an undermining effect. It will be in Israel's interest to "fix" Palestine philosophically. Perhaps it can be done simply by osmosis following the intensive economic interaction likely to take place post conflict.
Your juvenile obsession with envy undermines whatever argument you have.
BTW, Trump's actions certainly aren't going to end this conflict.
Your juvenile obsession with envy undermines whatever argument you have.
No it doesn't. Envy is the KEY emotion of the collectivist left, and is the primary foundational underpinning of communism, socialism, and putrescent social justice mini-movements such as income inequality and wealth disparity.
Envy is not a factor, it is THE ESSENTIAL FACTOR. The prime mover, the driver, the motor, the engine, the hydrogen fueling the fusion.
No it doesn't. Envy is the KEY emotion of the collectivist left, and is the primary foundational underpinning of communism, socialism, and putrescent social justice mini-movements such as income inequality and wealth disparity.
Envy is not a factor, it is THE ESSENTIAL FACTOR. The prime mover, the driver, the motor, the engine, the hydrogen fueling the fusion.
There are rich Liberals. Who are they jealous of?
Last year there was a whole campaign of lower to middle class Conservatives envious of these Liberal Elites.
Terrorism isn't driven by envy. This conflict between Israel and Palestine isn't driven by envy. Stop going off on tangents and get back on topic.
Last year there was a whole campaign of lower to middle class Conservatives envious of these Liberal Elites.
Terrorism isn't driven by envy. This conflict between Israel and Palestine isn't driven by envy. Stop going off on tangents and get back on topic.
The rich liberals use class envy to gain political power to go after what they envy, those with more power than they have. Envy doesn't have to be about money at all. In fact, the Holocaust was driven by envy of the Jews. Envy of their intelligence, competence, and ability to create value and wealth. That's why they were picked, because they were already the master race (figuratively speaking).
And in fact the entire cancerous malevolent SJW movement that we see, including subversive groups such as Antifa, are all driven by envy and hatred of those that achieve something and live happily. They are composed mostly of anarchists, communists, socialists, and various other haters. I mean, just look at their scowling, defocused, pathetic misery. These are not people who are likely to ever do anything with their lives, but they'll be god damned if they're not going to take those that do right the eff down. And preferably using violence.
And yes, Palestinians are envious of the Jews, which fuels their hatred. And the entire Arab world is envious of the Jews, who did more with their patch of desert in 40 years than the rest of the Middle East has done in the last 400. And WITHOUT OIL. In fact, were it not for oil, every theocracy in the Middle East would be nothing more than variants of the Palestinians. The Palestinians are Iranians without oil.
And yet, there is still hope. If the Palestinians are able to gain peace by accepting reality, they can learn a lot from interacting with Israel and become just as successful. But they will have to renounce what has held them back, and embrace the values of secular Western culture. That's how you become rich, that's how you become happy, that's how you generate wealth, that's how you have a future. Reason must move to the top of their hierarchy of values, and mysticism must move down near the bottom.
The United States can facilitate. By keeping the pressure on and helping Israel keep its military strong. Tyrants back down, because reality dictates that they must back down in the face of certain destruction and eternal failure. That's what changed the proposed Palestinian charter, that's what changed the attitude this week in Pyongyang, that's what caused the surrender of Imperial Japan, and that's how we contain the terrorism of the anti-Reason theocracies of the Middle East. And if they don't back down? We'll keep the pressure on and wait until the oil runs out. Because when that happens, it's game over. Without oil to prop up their madness, the region will become an irrelevant postscript.
The rich liberals use class envy to gain political power to go after what they envy, those with more power than they have. Envy doesn't have to be about money at all. In fact, the Holocaust was driven by envy of the Jews. Envy of their intelligence, competence, and ability to create value and wealth. That's why they were picked, because they were already the master race (figuratively speaking).
And in fact the entire cancerous malevolent SJW movement that we see, including subversive groups such as Antifa, are all driven by envy and hatred of those that achieve something and live happily. They are composed mostly of anarchists, communists, socialists, and various other haters. I mean, just look at their scowling, defocused, pathetic misery. These are not people who are likely to ever do anything with their lives, but they'll be god damned if they're not going to take those that do right the eff down. And preferably using violence.
And yes, Palestinians are envious of the Jews, which fuels their hatred. And the entire Arab world is envious of the Jews, who did more with their patch of desert in 40 years than the rest of the Middle East has done in the last 400. And WITHOUT OIL. In fact, were it not for oil, every theocracy in the Middle East would be nothing more than variants of the Palestinians. The Palestinians are Iranians without oil.
And yet, there is still hope. If the Palestinians are able to gain peace by accepting reality, they can learn a lot from interacting with Israel and become just as successful. But they will have to renounce what has held them back, and embrace the values of secular Western culture. That's how you become rich, that's how you become happy, that's how you generate wealth, that's how you have a future. Reason must move to the top of their hierarchy of values, and mysticism must move down near the bottom.
The United States can facilitate. By keeping the pressure on and helping Israel keep its military strong. Tyrants back down, because reality dictates that they must back down in the face of certain destruction and eternal failure. That's what changed the proposed Palestinian charter, that's what changed the attitude this week in Pyongyang, that's what caused the surrender of Imperial Japan, and that's how we contain the terrorism of the anti-Reason theocracies of the Middle East. And if they don't back down? We'll keep the pressure on and wait until the oil runs out. Because when that happens, it's game over. Without oil to prop up their madness, the region will become an irrelevant postscript.
And again. When will this happen? We've been a presence in the region for decades? We've been giving Israel support for decades. Nothing has changed. Perhaps maybe your theory on well pretty much everything is flawed. The region continues to be volatile with little end in sight.
If this is the supposed reason we are supporting Israel than it has been a miserable failure. If the reason we have given Israel aid is for their own fight than that has worked.
You know access to things like technology and social media actually does more than the fire and brimstone nonsense that you are constantly stuck on. But again it just isn't as cool as blowing up everything in sight to the might makes right crowd.
And again. When will this happen? We've been a presence in the region for decades? We've been giving Israel support for decades. Nothing has changed. Perhaps maybe your theory on well pretty much everything is flawed. The region continues to be volatile with little end in sight.
If this is the supposed reason we are supporting Israel than it has been a miserable failure. If the reason we have given Israel aid is for their own fight than that has worked.
You know access to things like technology and social media actually does more than the fire and brimstone nonsense that you are constantly stuck on. But again it just isn't as cool as blowing up everything in sight to the might makes right crowd.
Actually things have changed a bit. And are changing a bit. The Iranian protests suggest it. The slight but definite liberalization of public life in Saudi Arabia suggests it. The proposed Palestinian charter which omits mention of overt destruction of Israel and possibly acceptable physical borders suggests it. It's slow, but it's happening. And, the oil sheikdoms are already beginning to feel the need to diversify from sole reliance on oil as a proxy for a diverse economy.
Such an economy will require a drastic increase in communication with the West, and potentially transformative ideas and viewpoints will be smuggled in. It will be inevitable.
Might doesn't make right. But might protects rights. Facebook and Twitter will not change that.
Actually things have changed a bit. And are changing a bit. The Iranian protests suggest it. The slight but definite liberalization of public life in Saudi Arabia suggests it. The proposed Palestinian charter which omits mention of overt destruction of Israel and possibly acceptable physical borders suggests it. It's slow, but it's happening. And, the oil sheikdoms are already beginning to feel the need to diversify from sole reliance on oil as a proxy for a diverse economy.
Such an economy will require a drastic increase in communication with the West, and potentially transformative ideas and viewpoints will be smuggled in. It will be inevitable.
Might doesn't make right. But might protects rights. Facebook and Twitter will not change that.
Actually it will. As many of the citizens of these countries have started to gain access to new technology which means access to other cultures around the world and vice versa.
Yes social media is actually quite powerful.
As for Saudi Arabia, I'm still waiting for them to stop funding jihadist.
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