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This was a subject I was thinking about today - of course, there are as many takes on it as there are people!
My first thought went something like this. The REAL soldiers that I know (or knew) were infantry and cav in Vietnam. They were either drafted or signed up because it was imminent. They saw and did things which changed, most ruined, their lives....few actually made it through (suicide, alcohol, cancer from Agt. Orange, etc.)....
They were kids.....no heroes. They were kids forced into doing something they didn't want to do 1/2 way around the world.
My second thought, having visited my 97 yo MIL yesterday, was how so many women (and men, of course) spend virtually every day of their lives in nursing and care taking...keeping people alive and healthy...jobs that I couldn't do for a week, let alone a lifetime. Unheralded...low wage...no pension..no one giving them medals.
It's not really fair.
In terms of personal safety, the Military is by no means the most dangerous job....so we can write that one off.
No, given the scope of history, I think it's best that we don't glorify "I was following orders and doing my job" when it comes to modern industrial war. It may be a necessary evil and - just like any other endeavor - there are those who do their jobs with honor (and, in some cases, bravery).
One needs to look at the entire scope of those who wear the uniform. Most of the military members I've known in the last couple of decades are doctors (not combat, base....family), musicians (touring bands, etc.), photographers and the like. Even in Vietnam there were many REMF (guys sitting in A/C and eating hot meals) for every grunt out on the job.
We have to always remember that "the first casualty in any war is the truth". What we are fed through the news and media and Pentagon is not always reflective of the entire story...
Lots of brave people in the world. Lots of honorable people. Lots of people that sacrifice for others. If a Military person is one of those they deserve my respect. But I took a dislike to authority in Military School and it has stuck with me - so a uniform and rank itself does not present me with the idea of a Pedestal.
What I have respect for is the proper attitude about War which I have seen expressed often regarding WWII (and not many others!)....this is horrible business, so we all have to work and get it over with as quickly as possible.
That is what many of the great Military Leaders and planners of WWII (and FDR) had interest in. The situation since where the Military seems to be injected into actions without end....well, that gives me pause. I feel our government, and our people by example, have misled and mistreated the folks that signed up in this regard. There is a big difference between protecting the USA and projecting force with no positive results in Iraq, etc.
I don't think you know that people are allowed to have a different opinion than your own.
I've known lots of people in the military. I respected them -- or not -- as individuals, not because of their job.
Nice straw man. It isnt about a "difference in opinion".
You were clearly attempting to equate 80% of "military members being non combat" (from whatever hole you pulled that number from, I dont know) as having a non dangerous role. I refuted that, because I know better.
The guys in uniform who find themselves running into the bullets, yet refer to support types as REMF's, still know many of the REMF's often face much greater danger than say, the average school principal.
I too treat people as individuals, always have. But show me a SJW protestor who garners my respect (as per the OP's teacher friend). That's a hard push there.
Even in Vietnam there were many REMF (guys sitting in A/C and eating hot meals) for every grunt out on the job.
There were no safe areas in Vietnam. No place in-country was safe from commandos or mortar, and not many people had A/C.
Heck, not all Americans in the US had A/C in the late 60s. I was a military brat and we didn't have A/C in the base housing I was familiar with until 1969.
Right, we all know that all those enlisted personnel are making more $ than lawyers(insert sarcasm here).
I bet that most vets from Long Island, NY, get a way better pension than any 3rd grade teacher there, most of whom will receive close to 6 figures.(more sarcasm please).
Janitors working for public schools in NYC and places like the Port Authority and the MTA keep working well past the required yrs needed to retire because the pay and benefits are so good, and senior guys manage a lot of down time during their shifts, but I’m sure some grunt filling sand bags every day or working a burn pit is much happier where he is(yes, pile on the sarcasm).
You REALLY don’t have a clue. Really.
Looks like someone needs to go back to Economics 101. One word: Capitalism. There's a reason enlisted personnel don't make more than lawyers. Same goes for your other examples. It's the same reason I don't make what the average lawyer makes. Same reason why a janitor doesn't make as much as an actuary. Not sure what planet you're from but around here there aren't many (if any) other jobs that an 18 year old with just a high school diploma can get that will allow him/her to travel the world, receive free housing, and receive all the other benefits one would get for signing up, in addition to a salary. Like I stated earlier, people are selfish, they mostly do what's best for themselves. For most in the military it's really their best financial and/or lifestyle option. So they take it.
Between the two of us one of us is clueless. All I can say is that it's NOT me.
Nice straw man. It isnt about a "difference in opinion".
You were clearly attempting to equate 80% of "military members being non combat" (from whatever hole you pulled that number from, I dont know) as having a non dangerous role. I refuted that, because I know better.
The guys in uniform who find themselves running into the bullets, yet refer to support types as REMF's, still know many of the REMF's often face much greater danger than say, the average school principal.
I too treat people as individuals, always have. But show me a SJW protestor who garners my respect (as per the OP's teacher friend). That's a hard push there.
That's really what this whole forum is about -- people discussing their differences in opinion. And just for the record, I don't debate debating, so you can keep your straw men out of any post you expect me to respond to.
The data is online. You can look it up...or not...your choice.
This isn't about me being a school principal. But, just so you know, my father -- a 16 year old veterean of the Air Force, never faced a bullet or a gun. As a principal, I did.
This thread is about military service, not social justice warriors. But I do respect and want justice for all, even if you don't.
In my opinion, those men who were drafted into service and made to kill against their will deserve to be placed on a pedestal. Everyone else simply deserves respect.
Would that only be Americans, or does that include military personnel from other countries as well? Because well, there are many, many conflicts where those fighting didn't exactly have much of a choice.
There were no safe areas in Vietnam. No place in-country was safe from commandos or mortar, and not many people had A/C.
Heck, not all Americans in the US had A/C in the late 60s. I was a military brat and we didn't have A/C in the base housing I was familiar with until 1969.
Well, then, the dozens of Memoirs I have read from grunts, pilots and many others must be fibbing.....
Note - not saying that every area was A/C. But they were certainly comfortable and the odds were almost nil that one of those mortars had your name on it....comparatively.
Anyway, the point is clear - those in the rear had a TINY exposure to the conditions that those Cav and Infantry did. It was probably more dangerous in a week in the Bush than a year in the rear (Pilots and Heli Crews and others aside). There is a difference. A BIG one, IMHO. Oh, and 6 out of 7 were in the rear...maybe more when all is figured in (degrees of danger is the point here). Quote and link below from REMF article:
“Maybe they didn’t risk their lives but they risked risking their lives,” said Meredith Lair, a Vietnam War historian"
"We wore different uniforms. They wore fatigues and carried M16s. The fatigues were faded and had rips. They wore dirty boots and dog tags hanging around their necks. I worked in an air-conditioned office and wore khakis, starched shirts, spit-shined shoes and a belt with a shiny brass buckle. I didn’t carry a gun.” — Timothy Lomperis, who served in a support capacity"
Teachers, assorted bureaucrats don't sacrifice. Their jobs are the creme de la creme. The best pay, benefits, vacations, easiest work. Drs. work is demanding and imposes sacrifice but is rewarded very well. Police and firemen also face risks but they're pretty well paid, too.
Lawyers are economic cockroaches and parasites.
Military service is poorly paid, requires sacrifice. Sometimes, total sacrifice. People who have served in the military deserve recognition above others. But, it must stop short of worship or adoration. The armed services can't be put on a pedestal above society.
Yes I think it belongs on a pedestal
The biggest mistake we have made was to eliminate the draft
A nation of 35 year old skate board wonders
Bet your ass.
Would have done me good at 17 starting college early (or just turned 18, frankly) to be drafted, though as a sharp kid I'd have gone through an OCS type of program no doubt. Had there been a draft, I've have not ducked service but figured a way to go through college in ROTC then served my six years or so due to Uncle Sam. Not long after I got out, Gulf 1 started, so I'd surely have stories to tell.
Instead I made it through college with a STEM degree in 4.5 years, by end of the 80s (last month of the 80s, literally). Military service put the starch in the spine of more than a few peers and perhaps staying the course with ROTC would have gotten it done with greater life-discipline.
I was in ROTC for a semester as a freshman, testing the waters, and lost nothing by the experience: military fitness and History of the Soviet Union classes covered Phys Ed and General Ed requirements, respectively, so no loss (those were core to ROTC, obviously with many others). There was no compulsion to either continue, much less finish, so I didn't. When there is an imperative, or goal, I am unstoppable. When not, I really don't care. More kids could learn to set personal and professional goals, plus learn more about duty, honor, and flag.
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