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"America the great," that's a pretty hefty debate subject, and one that is so obviously weighted down with subjective views. It's a big country and it has an even bigger presence in the world of domination politics. A lot of other nation states might have a problem with such lofty praises of an entity that routinely has smashed it's foes in wars of dubious origins. In his book titled, New Rulers of The World John Pilger describes America and the western nations in general as allies in the quest for world dominance by a cabal of institutions, which now control others through financial intervention and trade treaties.
Of course the OP wasn't looking at that side of America, and neither has the average American citizen ever liked the notion of America as a bully state. So, living in the modern Rome has it's rewards, but that doesn't mean that this nation is a kind of saintly uncle who pays your way at dinner, no it's more like the big drunk guy at the bar who is smiling, but projecting his menacing nature at the same time. I'm not going to get in the line of--America the great-- admirers, just because it connotes an admiration of everything America does, and that isn't very realistic.
But I would agree that we, the American people, the regular Joes, have shown a tremendous charity toward those we selfishly aid during terrible natural disasters, and those in downtrodden foreign nations that need our collective help. But the power people in this nation aren't the low men, they aren't the hard workers either, they prefer to remain anonymous for the most part, putting in their own front man at the helm, one who shouts the praises of a nation he barely ever served. And both parties have a long list of potential front men waiting in the wings. We can look at America and say that it can certainly become a better place, or we can isolate ourselves from it's worst sins and tell each other how lucky we are to be part of all that greatness.
I'm being realistic when I say that we as a nation have committed a ton of wrong upon the hapless native tribes, the black Americans, women, children, and poor men. We have crowed about our unique freedoms, only to deny those freedoms to those who didn't "look like us." We have a less than stellar record of human rights violations, both here and abroad, laying waste to the homes and institutions of those we can't coerce into obedience, is this the stuff of greatness? No, and it isn't the entirety of our populace who can be blamed for all of that, but it was carried out under the flag of the United States of America, and that has tainted us all whether we like it or not.
"Great" itself is vague - which is what makes the MAGA phrase meaningless at best. Great as in what?
Powerful again - the USA is already a strong superpower, if not a hyperpower. So it's foolish to say America lost its greatness in this regard.
Upholders of Human Dignity again - If anything, we are doing a worse job of upholding human dignity than in the past. Other nations (especially in NW Europe and Australia) long seemed to be pulling further and further ahead of us here. For this kind of greatness, we'd've done better to select Bernie instead of Hillary as the Dem nominee, then had Bernie wipe the floors with Trump's hair (normally I'm not so harsh with other Reps but Trump's taken human indignity to a level unprecedented since slavery, and deserves every bit of slamming he gets).
Prosperous again - Here, the MAGA phrase is more compelling. Real wages have declined since 1973. It's due to a combination of the rich getting richer while the poor getting poorer, while the middle class is just treading water successfully. Furthermore, it's due to too many trade deals with low-wage countries coming too quickly, especially those with atrocious labor, product safety, and environmental standards. But again, Bernie would do a better job of accomplishing this than Hillary, let alone Teddy - and don't even ask about Donnie.
Chest-beating bravado again - That's not greatness. That's cheerleading. Rah Rah Rah! Our team's great. Ha Ha Ha! Your team sucks. If anything, that's an aspect of America I do NOT find so great, and in fact find it embarrassing. That kind of stuff belongs in sporting events, not in actual questions about what makes a nation greater than another (I'll make an exception for this concerning The Olympics, World Cup, etc. as they are sporting events).
Other possible definitions of "great" - I leave to your imagination.
I'm not sure what your idea of "upholding human dignity" is, but if its adding over three trillion dollars a year in federal spending a year for single payer health care while taking in about 3.3 trillion, that's a bad idea. Massive tax increases would be required, forcing the offshoring of huge amounts of money and jobs as companies send production elsewhere to remain competitive.
If its flooding this country with third world migrants, I would ask the family of the 83 year old man who was stomped to death by a "dreamer" in Texas only two days ago. Or the three young children who were orphaned last month in Oregon when a drunk illegal alien hit the motorcycle their parents were riding, killing them both. Or the woman in Minnesota who was murdered by a previously deported illegal alien who also had three DUI convictions, as well as felony domestic assault. I imagine those people would have wanted their human dignity upheld. Or the 15 (that we know about) children who were raped by illegal aliens in August alone. They probably don't feel that dignified right now either.
If you think Europe is a model we should follow, you might want to think again. Consider the 465 people who's lives have been devastated by acid attacks in 2017 alone in London. And it's no coincidence that the top two boroughs for acid attacks also have the highest muslim populations. Then there's the 10 year old German boy who was raped by Syrian classmates recently on a school trip. Figures released by the German government show that over 90% of the increase in crime is caused by "refugees." Not to mention the problems in Sweden, muslim attacks on French Jews, and a rise in terrorism all over Europe.
Australia isn't immune either. Government statistics show that African born immigrants commit crime at a rate five times higher than native Australians. They are 33 times more likely to be charged with "riot and affray", and 57 times more likely to be charged with aggravated robbery.
I agree with jbgusa, this is a great country. Is it perfect? Hell no. But we have in the past, and continue to strive to in the words of the preamble of our constitution, "form a more perfect union."
"America the great," that's a pretty hefty debate subject, and one that is so obviously weighted down with subjective views. It's a big country and it has an even bigger presence in the world of domination politics. A lot of other nation states might have a problem with such lofty praises of an entity that routinely has smashed it's foes in wars of dubious origins. In his book titled, New Rulers of The World John Pilger describes America and the western nations in general as allies in the quest for world dominance by a cabal of institutions, which now control others through financial intervention and trade treaties.
Of course the OP wasn't looking at that side of America, and neither has the average American citizen ever liked the notion of America as a bully state. So, living in the modern Rome has it's rewards, but that doesn't mean that this nation is a kind of saintly uncle who pays your way at dinner, no it's more like the big drunk guy at the bar who is smiling, but projecting his menacing nature at the same time. I'm not going to get in the line of--America the great-- admirers, just because it connotes an admiration of everything America does, and that isn't very realistic.
But I would agree that we, the American people, the regular Joes, have shown a tremendous charity toward those we selfishly aid during terrible natural disasters, and those in downtrodden foreign nations that need our collective help. But the power people in this nation aren't the low men, they aren't the hard workers either, they prefer to remain anonymous for the most part, putting in their own front man at the helm, one who shouts the praises of a nation he barely ever served. And both parties have a long list of potential front men waiting in the wings. We can look at America and say that it can certainly become a better place, or we can isolate ourselves from it's worst sins and tell each other how lucky we are to be part of all that greatness.
I'm being realistic when I say that we as a nation have committed a ton of wrong upon the hapless native tribes, the black Americans, women, children, and poor men. We have crowed about our unique freedoms, only to deny those freedoms to those who didn't "look like us." We have a less than stellar record of human rights violations, both here and abroad, laying waste to the homes and institutions of those we can't coerce into obedience, is this the stuff of greatness? No, and it isn't the entirety of our populace who can be blamed for all of that, but it was carried out under the flag of the United States of America, and that has tainted us all whether we like it or not.
"America is great because she is good. If America ceases to be good, America will cease to be great." Alexis de Toqueville.
He also said no constitution can withstand an immoral people while morality will always find a way even against the worst laws. Something like that. He emphasized the importance or morality over law and morality's ultimate decisiveness in politics and government.
I think his writing is the best side-by-side companion to the American experience from its beginning to the present and likely for what is still to come.
We're not so unique. Italy elected a former porn star to Parliament, I can't see our prudish country doing that.
I also think our POTUS is more than making the case that President is a job that requires previous relevant experience. Or at least a working knowledge of how democracy works.
Your working knowledge of former POTUSs is quite limited. Obama for example had a couple of years in the ILL senate and then thanks to some muscle (i.e. competitors got shoved aside by various means) got elected to the US Senate where he did nothing.
He has no resume, no school records, no health records, no birth certificate (fakes using 21st century terminology for 1960 documents don't count if you can reason), and if you listen to him speak, it's clear he's not a particularly bright guy. Nor is he "a brilliant orator." Repeating a Big Lie does not make it true.
Not to mention he hates America.
W OTOH had a record as Texas governor. That makes no difference, he was as incompetent and stupid as Obama.
He fancied himself as a great wartime president. GW, Great Warrior.
He got us into two worse-than-terrible wars of interminable duration (we finished off World War II in under four years) with no objectives, he followed in his daddy's (POTUS #41) footsteps of mucking around in areas where he had no business and absolutely no competence. If Poppy had let Saddam be, the Mideast would not be the utter mess it is today. W also signed off on some terrible legislation which included the absolutely unconstitutional FISA "courts" (hint: it's not a "court" if only one side gets to "testify") and spying on Americans "legalization."
Trump has decades of building success. His TV gig was decades after he'd established himself as a creative builder and tycoon. You should educate yourself.
"FOLLOWING the grand opening of the Wollman Rink this week, New Yorkers can now set their sights on the gala grand opening of the Wollman Rink next week.
Donald J. Trump refurbished the Central Park -skating rink two and a half months ahead of his own speedy six-month schedule and $750,000 below his own projected $3 million budget, having taken over the project after the city spent six years and $12 million unsuccessfully trying to get the job done." https://www.nytimes.com/1986/11/15/n...-ice-rink.html
Under budget ahead of schedule. That's Trump's M.O. Obama did everything he could to tear down our nation. Trump is the opposite.
Last edited by Dwatted Wabbit; 09-06-2018 at 12:10 PM..
We had slavery for hundreds of years. We had the Trail of Tears. We had Jim Crow. We had internment camps during WWII. We took our sweet time allowing 1) those who did not own property, 2) women, and 3) non-whites, to vote. We criminalized homosexuality until 2003. We did not legalize same-sex marriage until 2015.
Despite all that's positive about the U.S., I think all of that disqualified the country from ever being considered "great."
"America is great because she is good. If America ceases to be good, America will cease to be great." Alexis de Toqueville.
He also said no constitution can withstand an immoral people while morality will always find a way even against the worst laws. Something like that. He emphasized the importance or morality over law and morality's ultimate decisiveness in politics and government.
I think his writing is the best side-by-side companion to the American experience from its beginning to the present and likely for what is still to come.
You are the first person I have encountered in 20+ years who even knows who he was.
I have always thought that his book Democracy in America should be required reading.
too many broad generalizations about "greatness".... or even small nitpicky ones too..... i can say the truly advanced and generally enlightened countries on the earth are Sweden, Norway where the governments take half the paychecks of their citizens in order to supply a broad network of safety for all of it's citizens..... but these are small countries, not as vast as America and with greater problems that such a diverse population/country will drain. Plus I think they have a much more isolationist policy to world problems that the United States does not ascribe to..... we can also argue the pros and cons of the United States bombing Syria, not doing enough in Africa (Rwanda comes to mind, as does the plight of the Sudenese, or the wholesale destruction of Mali culture by muslim extremists), the latest problems with Yemen and our tacit support of atrocities by Saudi government, the horrible starvation of the Yemen populace.
Does the word GREAT imply perfect? For if it does, I cannot call us Great. But if our history of diversity, and our support for rights be they imperfect as they have in our history, at least we keep moving forward, we do decry this upsurge lately of white supremacy. But we also seem to be unable to distinctively define exactly what "American Values" are. I would say my definition would be " acceptance of all people being able to choose for themselves what is right for themselves " , that do not harm anyone else..... but then does that mean i can feel totally right in regards to abortion rights when it obviously means "something" does get harmed? Does the woman's rights supercede the possible, growing right of a fetus that will become a baby? It is such a moral dilemma!!!!! Life is so darn complicated here in America. I can stand up against the Klu Klux Klan here in Narrowlina as I have done and will continue to do because I believe the Klan is morally offensive, wrong..... but others will argue that this is America after all and everyone has a right to be whatever they want to be.
We haven't defined to a certainty what American values make us Great or should be supported and if anything, I think we do need perhaps a another Constitutional Convention
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