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...We have Aaron Copeland, and Igor Stravinsky, persecuted away from Europe, and others. Again, like the authors, the tradition of course does not go as far back but we've done some serious catching up. For a young country we have a lot....
American contributions to human civilization, especially after 1900, are first-rate. That's the not argument. Rather, the argument is that the prevailing American ethos doesn't define itself in this way. In other words, America has something like 12 of the top 20 research universities in the entire world, but nevertheless, America doesn't define itself as a culture of academic excellence. America has some of the finest symphony orchestras, opera companies and so on, but doesn't define itself as a leader in classical music. America is a leader in Nobel Prizes and Fields Medals (in math), but isn't much proud of itself as a country of physicists or mathematicians. And so on.
So for example it would be natural for a Russian to say, "Whatever the [expletive] so-called leaders of Russia do, I'm proud of the mathematicians at Moscow State University, and the theorems that they've proven." But how would it sound if an American said, "Whatever we did in Vietnam or Iraq or whatever, I'm pround of the mathematicians at Caltech, and the theorems that they've proven?" Doesn't quite have the same ring, does it?
Continuing along the line of American music... Possibly America's greatest cultural export has been its motion picture industry productions. I think that American film has had a profound influence around the world. The classic American western, in particular, is a genre that is unmistakably recognizable throughout the world.
Great music composers who are often overlooked are those American composers who worked on film scores for some of our country's most memorable films. Here are two:
Jerome Moross, composer of the film score for The Big Country. Here is the film score performed by the Hollywood Studio Symphony:
I was born in Russia and came to the U.S. when I was very young... I don't feel ashamed at all. I know that Russian leaders have been very ruthless and I wouldn't trust the Russian government. However, many of the ordinary citizens are good people with big hearts. They may come off cold at first, but you just have to get to know them... Not all Russians are heartless sociopaths as some people still like to believe.
Agree. Most Russians don’t support Putin, but just afraid to speak out for obvious reasons. Most are just ordinary hardworking People.I also worked with quite a few at ExxonMobil years ago.
America has jazz‘s Projecty, swing and rock ‘n’ roll music. Also, America has blues and country music. Europe does better on classical music. Is Copeland really the equivalent of Beethoven? When you get beyond “serious music“ America does a lot better. I have lots of albums of Russian balalaika music, Bulgarian music, Swiss yodeling, and Irish music. This is of all of interest as exotica; I cannot listen to this music all day.
I wouldn't want to listen to Swiss yodeling all day, but I could definitely listen to a mix of Bulgarian and Macedonian, with some balalaika music. And don't forget traditional Russian village singing! If you haven't heard it, seek it out. There are recordings of it available.
Here's the statement that generated this discussion about cultural contributions (to boil it down to a nutshell):
Quote:
Nearly every nation has some landmark, cultural signpost, notable contributions to literature and music and architecture and so on.
Actually, I may have kicked it off, with my statement about Russian culture being rich, and having a proud tradition in the arts. These statements don't imply a contest, judged in part by achievements in the classics, putting classical art, music or works of literature on a pedestal. If we're talking "cultural signposts", and notable contributions, jazz fits the bill. Jazz is also a very broad designation; it includes Dixieland as well as symphonic works. In any case, it's not that any one "composer" of jazz has similar stature to the big names in classical music. It's the fact that America birthed jazz as a genre, which means it's unique to the US.
But we're getting off-topic. I'm surprised to hear, that Russians would so easily disown their entire national heritage. I guess, that during the Vietnam war, a lot of draft-age people in the US wanted out of the US, and wanted nothing to do with imperialism. But according to the OP, it's Russians of all ages who are having this extreme reaction to the Russian President's aggression. Maybe they're mortified, and feel like they'll be the objects of hostility from ordinary Americans, so they want to disguise themselves temporarily. That's sad.
But I suppose there's a certain truth to it. Americans get flack in various parts of the world, including in certain sectors of Europe, for what's perceived as American war-mongering and imperialism.
With our centuries of history of slavery, genocide of Native Americans, internment of Japanese, bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, our nation-building projects gone wrong, highest rates of incarceration in the world, outrageous gun violence, regular school shootings, culture of narcissism -- just for starters -- it has been difficult for me to be a proud American. I often agree with Freud's observation that "America is a gigantic mistake." So if someone feels ashamed of being Russian or anything else, I would understand.
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I have never gotten this thing about hating emigres and their descendants for the horrors committed by their ancestors' rulers. It seems to me that most people emigrating from Eastern Europe or, for that matter China did so to escape the madhouses that those areas have historically been.
Speaking for myself, I am Jewish; half Slovak/Hungarian and half Russian, from modern Poland and Ukraine. I believe, unashamedly and unapologetically, in my Jewish and American heritage. I have no pride or longing for my European roots.
How do others feel?
There is a difference between "ethnicity" and "country of origin". My wife's father's people are Ukrainian but on her father's birth certificate, his father's birthplace is listed as "Austria". That's because their part of Ukraine (Galicia) was under the control of the Hapsburgs at the time he emigrated.
I also recall a time when I asked a pizza guy where he was from, and he said "we are Turkish from Bulgaria". So it was important to him to identify his ethnicity and not just the arbitrary borders that were drawn around him. That's important to a lot of people.
When I am asked about my "nationality" I enjoy saying that I'm American. Then I'll say, "Oh do you mean my ethnicity?" and then I list the countries and percentages where my ancestors came from.
As for today's Russians, I feel bad for the good ones. They're in a different boat than in previous generations when a Russian in the West was assumed to have defected or escaped communism. I'll try to remember that thousands of Russians have been arrested for protesting against the current war.
‘I Don’t Want to Be Called Russian Anymore’: Anxious Soviet Diaspora Rethinks Identity; (link), excerpts below:
I have never gotten this thing about hating emigres and their descendants for the horrors committed by their ancestors' rulers. It seems to me that most people emigrating from Eastern Europe or, for that matter China did so to escape the madhouses that those areas have historically been.
Speaking for myself, I am Jewish; half Slovak/Hungarian and half Russian, from modern Poland and Ukraine. I believe, unashamedly and unapologetically, in my Jewish and American heritage. I have no pride or longing for my European roots.
How do others feel?
I think the nexus of the problem lies in "...want to be called...."
If they're American citizens, or striving to be American citizens, then the mental dilemma only lies in wanting to be called what they used to be.
It reminds me of a joke by the comedian Russel Peters, a second-generation Canadian son of immigrants from India. He tells the story of his father--who still had an extremely strong Indian accent--getting frustrated with a European immigrant who hadn't learned English. His father--in that extremely strong Indian accent--scolds the other person: "If you're going to come to our country at least learn to speak our language!"
I think the nexus of the problem lies in "...want to be called...."
If they're American citizens, or striving to be American citizens, then the mental dilemma only lies in wanting to be called what they used to be.
The citizenship-aspect of it of course matters, but from wherever a person happens to be (where said person was born), is an indelible aspect of the person's self-conceptualization. Neither is it really a matter of just language. An Englishman who immigrated to the US in the 1950s might have been troubled by how Britain dealt with the Suez crisis, for example. One can change one's citizenship, taking on a new political allegiance. But one can't change the imprint of where one is from.
The citizenship-aspect of it of course matters, but from wherever a person happens to be (where said person was born), is an indelible aspect of the person's self-conceptualization. Neither is it really a matter of just language. An Englishman who immigrated to the US in the 1950s might have been troubled by how Britain delt with the Suez crisis, for example. One can change one's citizenship, taking on a new political allegiance. But one can't change the imprint of where one is from.
The operative phrase is "...want to be called."
If people have changed citizenship, the "...want to be called" should be their current citizenship.
Why don't you try giving your country another chance?
Quote:
Originally Posted by aries63
With our centuries of history of slavery, genocide of Native Americans, internment of Japanese, bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, our nation-building projects gone wrong, highest rates of incarceration in the world, outrageous gun violence, regular school shootings, culture of narcissism -- just for starters -- it has been difficult for me to be a proud American. I often agree with Freud's observation that "America is a gigantic mistake." So if someone feels ashamed of being Russian or anything else, I would understand.
I am really sorry you feel that way.
If you look at the history and psychology of most countries of the world, most are far worse. We are about the only country that tries to integrate disparate internal cultures and races. It is a messy, imperfect process. All the same, aries, (I am an Aries and like the screen name), we have a lot to be proud of, and many areas in which we can improve. Speaking as a person of Jewish, largely Eastern European extraction, I am very glad my ancestors braved a steerage trip across the windy, storm-tossed Atlantic to land, variously, at Ellis Island and Halifax, Nova Scotia. If they hadn't, I would likely not be sitting comfortably at my suburban New York keyboard.
Odessa, Ukraine once had the third-largest Jewish population of any city. Kiev and, variously named Limberg, Lvov, Lviv and Lwow were not far behind. You see, the Czars welcomed the Jews but at a segregated distance, the "Pale of Settlement" which was the western edge of the Russian Empire. My mother's side came from entirely within the Pale, from modern Poland and Ukraine. My father's side called themselves Hungarian but came from modern Slovakia. What both had in common was that their communities fell victim to the Eisensatzgruppen and Birkenau, Treblinka and the like. "Genocide" American style would have left most of them alive.
Why don't you try giving your country another chance?
Last edited by jbgusa; 03-07-2022 at 05:39 PM..
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Why don't you try giving your country another chance?
