Respectful debate about abortion, anyone? (speech, kids, legal, state)
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When it takes its first breath and cries out, it confirms it is alive.
I would like to think it is not yet conscious or aware while its head and shoulders are being squeezed through the birth canal.
According to what is known about development and fetal sentience and consciousness, the fetus or baby being born is most certainly aware of the sensations and pain of birth.
What evidence do you have for the statement that taking the first breath is the point in time where life begins?
I'm afraid anti-abortion propaganda features the prom queen who gets an abortion a week before delivery so she can go to the prom. Sex and the City sexual libertines. Etc.
With two exceptions, all the women I ever knew who had abortions were in high school or college when they had them. Most were first trimester. I remember one was not, which I mentioned earlier in the thread.
The other two had multiple abortions over periods of more than a decade, and in both cases it alcohol and carelessness were factors. Both eventually had children.
Fact is, there is no point where we suddenly become a person. We gradually develop into one, over the course of our earliest years.
For legal/practical reasons, an arbitrary point must be drawn- and birth is the best, obvious option for that. We become physically separate from another person, we're breathing, and there's a lot of social tradition about birth being the start of life.
Or alternatively, say, 40 weeks, or whenever birth is expected. Because yeah, to your point if we just say the physical act of birth, then we'd have to further specify at exactly what physical point has a birth occurred or not. But, that's nothing that couldn't be legally specified. Maybe it already has been, I'm not sure.
How do you define, “person”? Is it the same as saying, “human” which was what you replied to because if so we a do know the point in time when life begins and we are humans.
We go through a number of developmental stages but they are all stages of human growth and development. We aren’t grasshoppers who develop into dogs who develop into cats and than later on into horses and finally human beings. We are human beings and we go through many developmental stages as humans.
I do agree that it’s arbitrary to say that one becomes a live human being at birth.
I think if we weren't in such an anti-sex attitude "don't do it until you're married" and hyper sexualized culture (everything) young women and girls could admit they are going to be sexual and get birth control. Instead, there is great ambivalence about birth control or, even now, admitting one is going to have sex.
The friends who are a few years old than me had illegal abortions- frightening stories. And yes, I do know women who had multiple abortions, some with kids, some not. Troublesome but not a reason to make it illegal for everyone.
According to what is known about development and fetal sentience and consciousness, the fetus or baby being born is most certainly aware of the sensations and pain of birth.
What evidence do you have for the statement that taking the first breath is the point in time where life begins?
I have my opinion as to the first breath just as you have your opinion that it is a person from time of conception. As to your certainty about babies being aware of their head and shoulders being squeezed during childbirth, I said I HOPE THEY ARE NOT AWARE.
Having a reaction to pain is not the same as being aware of that pain. I have fibromyalgia. Sometimes I am very much aware of my pain, and sometimes not.
The states with no restrictions wrote the laws to protect a woman’s access to a LTA in the event other laws try to restrict her from medical care.
Women are not and won’t in mass, abort fully formed healthy babies at the moment just before birth because she changed her mind. The very few doctors doing late term I doubt would abort late term, a healthy baby for no medical reason.
One percent of all abortions are in the 20 to 24 week time period they are done for severe abnormalities. Anencephaly, Hydrocephaly, structural metabolic degenerative chromosomal issues. A woman’s pregnancy it’s issues are her personal private business.
I have my opinion as to the first breath just as you have your opinion that it is a person from time of conception. As to your certainty about babies being aware of their head and shoulders being squeezed, I said I HOPE THEY ARE NOT AWARE.
Having a reaction to pain is not the same as being aware of that pain. I have fibromyalgia. Sometimes I am very much aware of my pain, and sometimes not.
This is the Great Debates forum so I’m hoping we can elevate the discussion and back up what we are saying. Maybe research a little before posting. I’m also hoping we can honor the op’s question and discuss the topic with respect to development.
We are human beings, even while in the womb as we are of of the species, homo sapien, even while developing. That is not the same thing as personhood, something I’ve never argued about or even mentioned. A person is defined differently than a human being. https://medicine.missouri.edu/center...faq/personhood
At birth a baby does have awareness of pain and other sensations this is known. This begins between 28 and 30 weeks. This is not just reflexive reactions to pain, but awareness of pain. This is at least 10 weeks prior to birth. https://journals.lww.com/neurotodayo...l_pain_.3.aspx
How do you define, “person”? Is it the same as saying, “human” which was what you replied to because if so we a do know the point in time when life begins and we are humans.
We go through a number of developmental stages but they are all stages of human growth and development. We aren’t grasshoppers who develop into dogs who develop into cats and than later on into horses and finally human beings. We are human beings and we go through many developmental stages as humans.
I do agree that it’s arbitrary to say that one becomes a live human being at birth.
I mean, "we" are human beings, yes. We think, and talk, and go for a pleasure walk in our human-constructed worlds, and have a laugh over the phone, and watch our favorite shows.
But there is by necessity a point in time when there is a beginning of an I, or We, just like there's also an end. A fertilized ovum is a fertilized ovum. It's just the beginnings of a new human body, under construction, being prepared for a potential new life. I don't consider that stage of biology to be a part of "we", quite yet. My life as I know it, started after I was born, and breathing my own air, doing my own thing as a physical entity moving around on its own legs. Gradually becoming more aware of the world around me, in my infancy. My brain absorbing information, leading to eventually being able to communicate with my parents.
"Human" and "person" I think mean different things, yes. Your DNA, blood, heart, lungs, skeleton- all of that makes up what's classified as a human. As opposed to, gorilla, or donkey, or flamingo.
Your conscious mind, is where the person is. We can lose our brain function, and our bodies are still human, and still alive in that sense, same blood and oxygen and tissue. But the person that was there, is gone.
Also, you do not appear to be aware of the fact that it's very difficult, especially if you are a white woman in America, to get "spayed." ....
. She argued with me at least half a dozen times. "The most common side effect is regret" she said. And when I was literally on the gurney with an IV in, "But what if you meet a man, and he wants kids...?"
I had a tubal ligation at age 23. They did try the "But what if you meet a man, and he wants kids...?" argument. I said, "then he's not the man for me," and they gave up.
I have never regretted it.
Interesting article about when life begins. It makes the distinction between the beginning of the life of a human being, which is a scientific question and the philosophical question of when personhood begins.
Scientifically, the life of a human being begins at conception. It’s not an opinion nor is it debatable. It’s an objective, measurable scientific fact. The other question about when the life of a person begins is debatable and is subjective and can very much be based on opinions, religious beliefs, spiritual beliefs, etc.
I think we are talking past each other a lot in this discussion because the terms, human being and person are being interchanged and in reality they have very different meanings.
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