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In fact I've thought in the last few years, that if I were in a better position to be donating to political candidates, even if I am voting for Democrats right now, I would consider donating to Republicans who are moderate and not part of the MAGA movement. Because this country needs multiple functioning parties or we are sunk.
I am desperately hoping that either the Republican party gets its head on straight if they lose enough elections, and decides to change course, or moderates find a way to promote a new alternative to the Democratic party that is viable so that we still have choices and the Democrats don't really take over. But the worst nightmare of all in my opinion would be to let the modern MAGA Republicans gain and keep power. At this point, from 2016 to now, from what I've seen it has been something like 26-33% of the eligible voters in the US that support them. But they show up to the polls, and civic participation is never anywhere near 100%, so that doesn't mean they won't win elections.
In the meantime I am doing everything I can to remind people that the extremes of either side are not really what normal Americans align with. Each side has been really convinced that the worst of the "other side" is a terrifying threat to their way of life. I am prepared to condemn outrageous lunacy on my own side when I see it, just as much as anywhere. I wish that everybody would calm down and start being reasonable.
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Originally Posted by djmilf
The problem is that moderates in the Republican Party are denigrated as RINO's by the MAGA faction currently in the vanguard of the party. Moderate Republicans are either primaried by said faction, or are side-lined by the GOP leaders in congress who fear being primaried themselves.
The moderates in the Democratic Party are slammed by the left wing of the party as corporate sell-outs. These same Democratic moderates are seen by the MAGA faction as socialist/communist traitors.
Right now, there's no room in the Republican Party for moderates (unless they stay in the moderate closet). The moderates in the Democratic Party are getting it from both sides.
The fact that the MAGA faction sees itself as waging a social / religious crusade against the evils of socialism, globalism, CRT, LGBT+, anti-Christianity, white replacement theory, and CRT pretty much puts the kybosh on deal-making. You can't debate, let alone compromise with people on a religious crusade.
My assumption is that the Republicans will gain control of at least the US House in the upcoming election. Word is that there are those in the Republican leadership who plan to refuse to raise the debt limit so that the federal government runs out of money and defaults, unless demands concerning government spending are met. And the first things on the chopping block are Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid.
I was in my 30's during Bill Clinton's two terms as president. I never voted for the man, but I respected that he and the Republican majority in the US Congress figured out how to get the federal budget under control and start returning to fiscal sanity. Then the Republicans got control of both Congress and the Presidency, and they passed tax cuts. The statement was made that it was the People's money being returned, but what was ignored was that it was also the People's debt that wasn't getting paid down.
I believe that the fix for this is to have a minimum and maximum age limits for SCOTUS justices, a fixed number of years that the justices can serve on SCOTUS, stagger the judicial terms so that each president can nominate at least one justice per his term in office, and return to a two-thirds majority confirmation vote in the Senate for SCOTUS justices.
And maybe some sort of penalty for the members of the Senate when they fail to confirm or reject a SCOTUS nominee - after thirty days they're all locked in the Senate Chamber, and fed only bread and water, and not allowed to leave until they come up with an up or down vote for the pending nomination.
Of course, that would require a constitutional amendment, and IMO those on the right side of the political aisle, ascendant on SCOTUS for at least the next few decades, see no reason to change the status quo.
both replies above touch on.. The problem. Both are saying basically the same thing..
"Oh, it's MAGA"
No.. it's not. This.. REALLY went sideways with the 2000 election. You want to point at the cracks? There they are. that's where they started.
Dems think all Republicans are MAGA, or, as the two posters above hit the notes of.. MAGA has control of the party.
Well, the same basic stuff was said back in GWB's term 20 years ago. "Oh it's Bush and Cheney that are the problem".
Don't get me wrong.. Most Republicans don't see 'normal' democrats, either.. They see Nancy Pelosi and AOC.
both replies above touch on.. The problem. Both are saying basically the same thing..
"Oh, it's MAGA"
No.. it's not. This.. REALLY went sideways with the 2000 election. You want to point at the cracks? There they are. that's where they started.
Dems think all Republicans are MAGA, or, as the two posters above hit the notes of.. MAGA has control of the party.
Well, the same basic stuff was said back in GWB's term 20 years ago. "Oh it's Bush and Cheney that are the problem".
Don't get me wrong.. Most Republicans don't see 'normal' democrats, either.. They see Nancy Pelosi and AOC.
Hm...yes and no? I mean, I do think that MAGA has control of the party, given the nature of so many of their candidates in this election and people so often getting primaried from the right, or the alt-right. But "control of the party" does NOT mean control and uncritical support of all people who are or were dedicated "conservative" voters.
I was an Independent for most of my life and have voted for Republican and Libertarian candidates before. I'm no lifelong Democrat locked in an information silo, unaware of what people who vote Republican say or think, boots on the ground. I still have loving and connected relationships to the family members who do and always did vote Republican, I didn't cut them off at any point. And we have calm and reasonable conversations about politics sometimes. Or, in the case of my ex husband who is all the way into the Q-Anon stuff, I let him share his perspective without arguing with him because I'm interested in understanding the viewpoint. It's data, if nothing else.
Though I do believe that the reasonable AND the unreasonable people I know who are on that "side" of things, mostly think that all Democrats not only in the party but who vote for and support them, are peddlers of a horrifying "woke agenda" that threatens their way of life (at the very least.) And if that were anywhere near as true as they think it is, then I'd agree that it is something to be worried about.
I've told my Dad (one of the relatively reasonable conservatives I know, though prone to fear and disgust over things that talk radio tells him to get upset about)... that if we're going to think the worst of one another I could start accusing him of being a racist, breaking ideological bread with neo-Nazis and the KKK, but I don't do that, do I? No. I do not. So I would ask that he do me the favor of not assuming and being quick to believe the worst of me or my dear friends, because most of it is fearmongering outrage porn BS, propaganda aimed at both sides of things. Neither one of us wants to see our beloved country torn apart and destroyed. Both of us hate violence and destruction. Both of us want equal treatment under the law, equal opportunities for success for hardworking Americans, freedoms and choices for the American people to make, justice in cases where crimes have been committed no matter how powerful the criminal (and both of us if asked, would say that this applies to proven crimes committed by anyone including leaders of the party we vote for.) Both of us would rather live and let live than hate anyone.
We have a LOT in common. More than we don't. And I think that applies to the vast majority of the PEOPLE... As for the "parties," the congress critters and elected types and all of the bozos and sycophants who orbit them like so much floating debris... Maybe they really believe the crap that comes out of their mouths, and maybe they don't. I'm sure that a lot of them are just trying to sell people something and since for longer than I've been alive, people are more motivated to vote "against" the other guy, than "for" anyone...they are shilling hate, because hate sells. Which is really weird since most people I know claim not to be in the market for it.
Overall, I think the country will be better. We'll talk about real issues and stop with the non-issues that dominate the news.
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Indeed! I’ve always argued with my liberal friends and ask them why the left spends so much time and effort on the ISMs, looking to government for help when it’s obvious that our government has very little bandwidth or expertise to solve social issues. This always struck me as odd.
Granted, I’m not saying these social issues are not important but build your cause around social media and leave the government out of it which allows it to do their job and that is to govern.
both replies above touch on.. The problem. Both are saying basically the same thing..
"Oh, it's MAGA"
No.. it's not.
The original question you asked wasn't exactly on topic, but I answered it anyway. Bad me.
As to your response that it's not MAGA, tell the Republican politicians who went against Trump and subsequently got primaried.
Quote:
This.. REALLY went sideways with the 2000 election. You want to point at the cracks? There they are. that's where they started.
The 2000 election? Surely you jest!
I'll take hanging chads and a Florida election that took weeks to decide over the current state of affairs. FWIW, I voted for GWB (both times) and thought that Florida did go for him in 2000, before SCOTUS made it official and subsequent audits proved that GWB eked out a win.
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Dems think all Republicans are MAGA, or, as the two posters above hit the notes of.. MAGA has control of the party.
Control for the leadership of the GOP is shaping up to be between Donald Trump and Ron DeSantis. They both want the same MAGA things, but each of them wants to be the MAGA standard bearer and the next POTUS in 2024. There's no one else even close to challenging these two.
Yes, right now MAGA is driving the GOP bus.
But we're now in thread drift.
If you wish to discuss this further in the Great Debates forum, please start a new thread.
MAGA isn't going to change things a whole lot. Once a person is elected and insulated from us serfs for a couple of years, his/her priorities change to loyalty to Washington establishment. This generally is true of those of either party. For instance Progressive "firebrand" AOC was doing a dance during one of her town meetings when some of her constituents were calling her out about keeping the war machine in Ukraine funded and then, only days later, Progressives in the Democrat party had to swallow and retract their demand that the party not support continued destruction in Ukraine. They got shut down within 24 hours.
Same with GOP candidates this cycle backtracking on their insane anti-abortion stances. Now some are softening their tone. The two major party machines are run by people who will pressure even the most idealistic to come to heel. Plus, candidates know if they lie about their goals no one is going to remember in 6 months anyway.
Also, I read some "MAGA" candidates were supported with money from the contending major party so we should be able to see and come to grips with how little actual control we have after election day.
You really think a lot of the old geezers up there are elected each time on their merits? C'mon Man!
Politicians live in a completely different reality today than we do. We complain about tipping when we get take-out and they routinely vote on legislation costing us trillions of dollars. Can you even imagine how intoxicating that kind of profligacy must be, and how little your concerns about crime in your city sound to people who fence off our public buildings when they wish? I mean, really, most of us have no standard of reference to go by here.
IMO, jertheber and sonic pretty much said it all for me. But there is more, so here goes.
Total control of 3 branches of government by the GOP will mean these things:
- No abortions, ever, for any reason.
- No birth control.
- No same sex marriage.
- No medical or regular marijuana.
- Taxpayer funded religious schools.
- End of Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, TANF, SNAP, etc. (Social Darwinism, You're On Your Own - the YOYO World).
- No taxes on corporations or the mythical job creators.
- No EPA, pollution runs rampant for the fossil fuel and chemical industries.
- They'll find ways to keep women and people of color from voting.
- Unions will be outlawed.
- Public schools must teach religion or be de-funded.
Trust me, I've seen this coming for years, it can happen if we don't vote in overwhelming numbers to stop it.
Not surprising that our supposedly unbiased moderator of the Arizona forum is a staunch liberal conspiracy theorist who is doing nothing but fear mongering. As a right-leaning libertarian, your list couldn't be further from the truth. Not one of your bullets is something I support, and I am a supporter of the new Republican party. This is nothing but scare tactics and you should be ashamed of yourself.
Not surprising that our supposedly unbiased moderator of the Arizona forum is a staunch liberal conspiracy theorist who is doing nothing but fear mongering. As a right-leaning libertarian, your list couldn't be further from the truth. Not one of your bullets is something I support, and I am a supporter of the new Republican party. This is nothing but scare tactics and you should be ashamed of yourself.
This is a bad faith ad hominem response. If you do not support any of the things on this list, but you support the "new Republican Party", the Republican party of today, then you might consider telling us what you believe that they will do, that you actually do support.
Those of us who said such things as this, we believe that these are the things that the Republican party of today is trying to get done, some right away, some over time, some of it is more "end game" if they had sustained power. Which many of us believe that they're trying very hard to get.
And even those who are not specifically and personally invested in these goals, wish to stand shoulder to shoulder with their party in clearing the way for those who DO want these things, to get them done.
Now if you don't believe any of this, hey cool! No one is telling you what to think. Please tell US what YOU think, instead. Why do you support the right, and what do you think that they will do?
As for Mike's moderation of the Arizona forum or any forum, did you expect that a mod is a robot with no beliefs or position of their own? Yet they can easily keep their own bias out of the business of moderation. If you have a problem with Mike's moderation of the Arizona forum, maybe take it up privately with him or the other mods or something.
I live in AZ too. Howdy neighbor! So I have some investment in knowing what you think the Republicans will do here, if they get elected, though I recently dropped off my ballot voting against them all. Maybe if they win, we can compare notes and see whose predictions were closer, in a few years, eh?
I can give you a short term prediction right this second, though. Not a single one of them will concede a race if they are announced as losing, they will raise cane about cheating and fraud and call for recounts, audits and lawsuits, and there will not be a single bit of proof to support their accusations but they will make them nonetheless. We'll be up to our eyeballs in this for months if not years to come. I would make a friendly gentleman's (though I'm a woman and not always gentle) wager on this!
Not one of your bullets is something I support, and I am a supporter of the new Republican party.
Okay, the party you support has plenty of currently serving lawmakers, and is running many new candidates this cycle (including Herschel Walker), who would seek to outlaw abortion in all cases, even rape and incest. It's not like Mike pulled that one out of thin air. Marco Rubio and Lindsey Graham would seek to ban abortions nationally, even though at least 55% of us are pro-choice. Are those not Republicans that you support?
Also, 157 Republican House members voted against the recent bill to protect same-sex marriage. Only 47 voted for it. So don't act like your party is all pro-gay enlightened now.
I could go down the list... they had a vote to legalize marijuana this year, and only 3 Republicans voted for it.
Rep. Lauren Boebert just 3 months ago, said, "I'm tired of this separation of church and state junk"
She's only 35 years old, so do you not consider her a part of the "New Republican party"?
Not surprising that our supposedly unbiased moderator of the Arizona forum is a staunch liberal conspiracy theorist who is doing nothing but fear mongering. As a right-leaning libertarian, your list couldn't be further from the truth. Not one of your bullets is something I support, and I am a supporter of the new Republican party. This is nothing but scare tactics and you should be ashamed of yourself.
Every one of my bullets is exactly what the GOP intends to do so they can please their billionaire backers. When the criminal Dobbs decision was handed down it was Justice Thomas himself who stated, in writing, that other cases, like same sex marriage, were appropriate for reconsideration.
Justice Alito, long considered the Pope's man on our high court, promptly went to the Vatican after he led the overthrow of 50 years of settled law. I'm sure he got his attaboy pats from the fat old white men in funny dresses.
Then there are the safety net issues; the billionaire backers of the GOP have tried to kill Social Security since it started. Go read up on the Koch brothers and their crazy father, Fred Koch, and you'll see who are the billionaires who want to reduce the Federal government to just the Department of Defense.
I've watched this play out for 20+ years, every one of my bullets is spot on.
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