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Yeah, sure enough... it's a cruel world out there. Have you ever seen a lion rip its prey apart while the prey is still alive and trying to escape the lion’s razor-sharp claws and teeth?
Let's say you are a deer. Would you feel more pain and suffer more cruel and disgusting trauma before death at the paws of a mountain lion who has big, sharp claws and fangs and knows how to use them... or in the sights of a hunter who carries a large caliber rifle and knows how to use it?
Now I can't speak for all deer of course , but as a deer, and knowing my number was up, I believe I'd choose the hunter. Your mileage may vary.
I too have been a vegetarian for 16 years and have a mostly vegan home. I do not cook with animal products but will bring home left over pizza...
Anyway...I find that there is a disconnect here.
First, animals eating each other in nature is very pure. They do not have refridgeration and the hunters (lionesses for example) kill food (a Gisele for example) for their entire tribe.
The tribe eats the kill and does not eat again until needed.
All the while, the Gisele herd is free, roaming, eating, loving, enjoying etc. etc.
As for us humans (besides the hunters on this thread) we are generally eating manufactured animals each time we order a burger.
That ground beef patty has hundreds of cows whom from the time of birth were fed chemicals, stood in their own feces, were kept from natural interactions and were then most likely transferred to a slaughterhouse where their slaughtering was inhumane (IMO) and downright dirty (IMO).
One really does not equal the other Lioness Hunting VS Humans getting a fast food burger. So while people can say that humans have been eating meat for centuries, yes this is true however, we have only been factory farming for about 40 or 50 years. Therefore, that is why the spear/roasting over an open fire is not really relevant (IMO) for the argument.
This shows that there are all kinds of motivations for being vegetarian. Unlike you I see nothing pure in wild animals killing each other, either. I kind of despise nature altogether, and I am quite happy and proud that humans are or at least can be pretty much outside nature. Factory farming is certainly a disgrace, no doubt about that, nor are its products healthy, but I consider any killing of animals a disgrace, even by traditional hunter-gatherers in the rain forest. I am basically an atheist, thus I can afford to look at nature from a very neutral perspective: it is one cruel, gross mess and the ultimate proof to me that nature was not the product of some gods, at least not of any gods I would want to have anything to do with. If a human created such a system that was based on highly-developed beings trying to rip each other apart, to kill each others' children in order to survive, etc., we would consider that human a monster, and rightly so.
We humans lead lives that have virtually nothing to do with nature anymore, we live in climate-controlled homes rather than caves, we live in relationships instead of harems, we dress instead of running around naked, etc. So why would I keep such outdated habits like killing animals just in order to eat, when it is not necessary, anyway? If we were cats, that basically die when they don't get meat, I would think differently. Then killing animals would be like self-defense, but in reality it is just a silly habit in my view, because being omnivorous means we can eat almost anything, but we don't have to eat everything.
Another thing I wonder about is why we keep eating mainly those species that are so close to us, namely mammals such as cows, deer, sheep, even their children, pigs, etc. Animals that may not be as intelligent as we are, but which nevertheless feel the way we do. They are scared, happy, sad etc. They are individual animals like us, with character and everything, not insects, which oddly, we don't eat here in the West.
We draw arbitrary lines within mammals, lines that make no sense. I am from Europe, and at least here eating horses, dogs, cats etc. is frowned upon as primitive and unethical. I wonder why, when all of these animals are less highly developed than pigs, which we treat like trash.
I couldn't kill mammals (except for self-defense), thus it would be dishonest of me to eat them when someone else does the killing for me.
The Buddha had a personal policy of never eating any food that had been prepared for him. He would only eat what had been prepared for someone else, and left uneaten. Therefore, he absolved himself of responsibility for any living thing being killed. Philosophically, it would not work as a universal practice, but it worked to assuage his own conscience and to set an example for others. Perhaps as a way of saying humanity kills too much food, and I can live on the leftovers.
Vegetarian. I won't support the meat industry. It's an ugly, violent, dangerous enterprise, and drains natural resources. I have saved thousands of dollars by giving up meat. I am, by far, healthier, and happier when I am not using my alimentary canal as a graveyard for animals. I shudder when I think about the stuff in meat. Lungs, tongues, livers, hearts, hairs, e coli, feces, urine, antibiotics, hormones, pesticides. You couldn't pay me any amount of money to eat meat. And, no, I am not pale, and near death, nor do I have a b 12 deficiency. I am 62 and can pass for 45.
Oh Lord, the old "we're in too deep to ever change" argument. Thank heaven that tired argument didn't prevail when slavery was finally abolished.
I live in the country. One day, a beautiful 10 point buck came stumbling up to our house, staggering, blowing hard, head down, and in great pain - with an ARROW stuck deep in his chest. He died a horrible death due to a hunter missing his "clean shot." Disgusting.
Firearms are far more humane than arrows. Arrows work by bleeding out an animal, a bullet causes shock and is capable of killing an animal quite instantly and painlessly. Bowhunting takes a lot of skill and not everyone has the skill needed. I could do it, but I prefer my rifle, since I hunt for meat and not for sport I see no need to use a less effective weapon, the oldest weapon I'll use is a flintlock rifle...
I dislike both, but I think Whoppers are more harmful.
If everyone stopped eating meat, there would be no starvation on the planet. It takes obscene amounts of grain and water to produce one pound of beef.
There is starvation due to a lack of food? Do some research...your ignorance is showing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apples&Oranges
Oh Lord, the old "we're in too deep to ever change" argument. Thank heaven that tired argument didn't prevail when slavery was finally abolished.
I live in the country. One day, a beautiful 10 point buck came stumbling up to our house, staggering, blowing hard, head down, and in great pain - with an ARROW stuck deep in his chest. He died a horrible death due to a hunter missing his "clean shot." Disgusting.
Why on earth is that disgusting? Your outrage doesn't make sense. I ALSO bet you are an incredible hypocrite! You claim you hate harm to animals, but I would bet my last paycheck you don't cry when you realize your car is manufactured by factories that took the land of hundreds of animals. I bet you live in a house (you DO live somewhere, don't you?) Modern manufacturing, commercialization and suburban sprawl removes the habitats of animals to the point where it contributes greatly to their deaths. You want to be a vegetarian for reasons of animal cruelty? Fine, but don't be so da*n hypocritical. You want to save animals, but I bet you don't want to give up your comfortable bed at night, or give up having windows on your house (I have been inside a glass factory, I can promise you those things kill more than their share of animals - they are huge, hot and produce a good amount of waste). If you are going to make the claims you are, you better be ready to put your money where your mouth is and ACTUALLY follow through on your ideals. ANYONE that lives in America and is not a hermet in the woods contributes to animal cruelty.
Vegetarians who want to save animals, but don't want to make other sacrafices seem to only do so to save the 'cute' ones like baby cows and sheep, but when it comes to real sacrafice (giving up your car, for example?), you don't see them doing anything. Hypocritical.
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, but as a deer, and knowing my number was up, I believe I'd choose the hunter. Your mileage may vary.
