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LOL!! Now look at my other posts and I'll give you three guesses as to what I think of the Bible.
This illustrates the heart of the problem we have today. There are very few people left who even know what they themselves think. For most younger people, they have been told in no uncertain terms what they should think by the PC police force that took control of the public education decades ago. So they plaster the Internet with the kind of crap that was used to program them and think it's case closed.
Not for those of us who have made up our own minds based on long life experience. You could post 1000 links from encyclopedias, journals, anything you can think of and it would not influence me in the slightest on this kind of issue. As life goes on I better understand how fortunate I was to live in an era where I was taught how to think - not what to think.
I know what to think.
You said that marriage has always been between a man and a woman. I simply posted some historical reference as to where gay marriage has been throughout history.
Just refuting your argument that, "Marriage has always been between a man and woman" It hasn't, its that simple.
Personally, I feel the state either shouldn't marry anyone, or it should allow anyone to get married that wants to. Denying homosexuals the right to marry is based on a religious beliefs, and thats not supposed to be constitutional. This is why the courts overturn these laws, unless a constitutional amendment is passed, as was done in California.
They have the same right to marry that anyone else does. Marriage is not a right per se, but an institution. An institution long ago defined as being a relationship between a man and a woman - recognized by law for the purpose of providing for support of their offspring.
That is what the institution is and that's what it should stay. Everyone is welcome to enter it as defined.
And folks, don't jump to the knee-jerk conclusion that I am blind but for my religious devotion. There is no one on this forum more anti-religion than I.
I've been waiting for these two usual strawman to crop up.
Heterosexuals, by nature will chose from the pool of consenting adults from the opposite gender. Heteroes men will NOT marry a man.
Homosexuals, by nature, will chose from the pool of consenting adults of the same gender. Gay men will NOT marry a woman.
Just as you or I would not choose to marry someone of the same gender as us, homosexuals won't choose from the pool of opposite gendered people as it goes agaasint their very natures.
Therefor, they are being denied the right to marry.
Also, the G'ment has NEVER been in the business of child creating or raising. It is recognized by law, as well as a g'ment institution due to several laws passed by England (remember, we were once Colonies) in an effort to eradicate a slew of false marriages. These laws transitioned through our Revolution along with most of our Common Law set.
Marriage is also a Civil Right, as noted by SCOTUS in Loving vs. Virginia, the case that found one of the older "definitions of marriage" ie between one man and one woman of the Same Race, to be uncosntitutional.
So...
1. G'ment sponsored/supported child bearing has nothing to do with the marriage.
2. Marriage IS a Civil Right.
3. Gays are being denied the right to marry.
I've been waiting for these two usual strawman to crop up.
Heterosexuals, by nature will chose from the pool of consenting adults from the opposite gender. Heteroes men will NOT marry a man.
Homosexuals, by nature, will chose from the pool of consenting adults of the same gender. Gay men will NOT marry a woman.
Just as you or I would not choose to marry someone of the same gender as us, homosexuals won't choose from the pool of opposite gendered people as it goes agaasint their very natures.
Therefor, they are being denied the right to marry.
Also, the G'ment has NEVER been in the business of child creating or raising. It is recognized by law, as well as a g'ment institution due to several laws passed by England (remember, we were once Colonies) in an effort to eradicate a slew of false marriages. These laws transitioned through our Revolution along with most of our Common Law set.
Marriage is also a Civil Right, as noted by SCOTUS in Loving vs. Virginia, the case that found one of the older "definitions of marriage" ie between one man and one woman of the Same Race, to be uncosntitutional.
So...
1. G'ment sponsored/supported child bearing has nothing to do with the marriage.
2. Marriage IS a Civil Right.
3. Gays are being denied the right to marry.
Surely you can't be done with climate change already, can you Axis?
As I told Memphis, you can post other useless opinion all day and all night long and it will not influence me in the slightest on this kind of issue. Especially useless opinion from SCOTUS. I make up my own mind and will never leave that to others.
1. Wrong
2. The institution of marriage is for a man and a woman. Everyone has the same option to enter it as defined.
3. Only to each other.
I don't know if you are old enough to know better or not. But most who recite your stated opinion had it drummed into them by a public education system intolerant of any other thought.
And I'll say it again - this is an extremist agenda that directly fuels the extremist agenda on the right. So what we have way too much of here - and in society at large - is crazies on the left and right screaming viewpoints at each other that are impossible to reconcile. Compromise is in order if we are to become functional and productive again.
Your viewpoint is on the fringe and it will stay there for good reason. Though I know you will want to spend the rest of the night evangelizing, I know better than to think it would serve any purpose. We will have to agree to disagree.
Last edited by CrownVic95; 08-27-2009 at 07:41 PM..
Surely you can't be done with climate change already, can you Axis?
As I told Memphis, you can post other useless opinion all day and all night long and it will not influence me in the slightest on this kind of issue. Especially useless opinion from SCOTUS. I make up my own mind and will never leave that to others.
1. Wrong
2. Correct - between a man and a woman
3. Only to each other.
I don't know if you are old enough to know better or not. But most who recite your stated opinion had it drummed into them by a public education system intolerant of any other thought.
And I'll say it again - this is an extremist agenda that directly fuels the extremist agenda on the right. So what we have way too much of here - and in society at large - is crazies on the left and right screaming viewpoints at each other that are impossible to reconcile. Compromise is in order if we are to become functional and productive again.
Your viewpoint is on the fringe and it will stay there for good reason. Though I know you will want to spend the rest of the night evangelizing, I know better than to think it would serve any purpose. We will have to agree to disagree.
Sorry, it is YOU who state unsupported opinion. Once again you refuse to address my points without supporting your opinions in the least, offering only ad hominems in response.
And I am a grandfather, so I am plenty old enough thank you. They still taught creationism and bible study when I went to public school.
On the fringe? Certainly, since many Americans don't want to be viewed as "less Christian" or "Less hetero" by supporting Equality of Marriage.
6 States down, more to go, unless the case hits SCOTUS, however.
BTW, it is the "right" who are becomng "the fringe", as shown by this past Election Cycle, and America's fed-up attitiude with those that promote the Religious Right (which is neither) agenda.
I don't think it specifically says in the Bible that Canaanites practiced same-sex marriage. He talks about rabbinic tradition/teaching and so forth. That's relevant to Orthodox Jews, but not necessarily proof outside that group.
From what I've been able to tell there was same-sex marriage, of a sort, in certain cultures but it was almost always or just always one of the following
Same-sex/opposite-gender - A male is deemed to be a woman or a female a man or either is deemed to be a third gender. Essentially marriage with a transgendered person.
Mentoring - An 16-18 year-old male enters a temporary sexual union with an older man. This is to teach him various things for when he gets himself a woman. (The idea homosexuality will be educational for when you marry heterosexuality is weird to us, but not to them)
Kindred spirits - Two very close same-sex friends have their friendship bonded or sealed in some official way. The union is not intended as romantic or sexual nor is it seen as such. (Although in some cases it might be accepted it'll be "friends with benefits." Joe Carter, an Evangelical, proposed the state allow a "bonding contract" for friends that's explicitly non-sexual/non-romantic but wouldn't forbid sex between the so bonded. Same-sex-marriage advocates generally found the notion insulting)
Prestige - A culture expects the powerful to have a harem of wives. Therefore wealthy women get themselves a harem of wives who help her with childcare and home maintenance. The union is not seen as sexual or romantic. (Maybe the Nuer as anthropology books in the 1920s speak of them allowing women to have wives)
Aristocratic privilege - The nobility or king has the right to marry anyone or anything to each other. He can marry two male servants or two female servants or a servant to his statue or a man to his horse or he can marry the Moon or the Moon's reflection in water or whatever he wants.
Sorry, it is YOU who state unsupported opinion. Once again you refuse to address my points without supporting your opinions in the least, offering only ad hominems in response.
And I am a grandfather, so I am plenty old enough thank you. They still taught creationism and bible study when I went to public school.
On the fringe? Certainly, since many Americans don't want to be viewed as "less Christian" or "Less hetero" by supporting Equality of Marriage.
6 States down, more to go, unless the case hits SCOTUS, however.
BTW, it is the "right" who are becomng "the fringe", as shown by this past Election Cycle, and America's fed-up attitiude with those that promote the Religious Right (which is neither) agenda.
My posts in other threads confirm my agreement with you about the right fringe. I'm fed up with them, especially the religious fanatics, as you are and a growing number of Americans are.
But I am equally tired of attacks on common sense from the left fringe. Gay marriage proponents and global warming chicken littles (yes, I know you are not in that group) are equally as far out there as the whack jobs on the right . On gay marriage it is as though you are at a complete loss to understand the absurdity of what you are suggesting. I don't frankly know how you can do it with a straight face - absolutely no pun intended.
What the two fringe groups have in common is that they have convinced huge numbers of sensible people in the moderate middle, passive people too easily intimidated, that it is taboo to challenge their agenda. If you dare, you are "ignorant", a racist, a homophobe, a sexist, a religious bigot, a knuckle-dragger, a flat earther, and the list goes on and on. Therefore many people don't dare have, let alone express, opinions on social issues as they fear being targeted as one or more of the above. More people than not simply say something like "I don't judge" or "it's not my place"and remain in their straight jackets. They think that somehow everything will work out ok if they just stay out of the way. Nothing could be further from the truth, of course, as history has shown time and time again. Widespread lingering apathy is at the core of our ills today and the reason that the rug that was our country has been yanked right out from under us.
The nutcase ideas that the two fringe groups shout back and forth at each other are like a perpetual chain reaction, with each group feeding the other's fervor. When will it end? When "the great silent majority", if you will, raises their collective voice and says enough. I'm doing my part and I can only hope that more and more will find the courage to speak up and re-take center stage.
My posts in other threads confirm my agreement with you about the right fringe. I'm fed up with them, especially the religious fanatics, as you are and a growing number of Americans are.
But I am equally tired of attacks on common sense from the left fringe. Gay marriage proponents and global warming chicken littles (yes, I know you are not in that group) are equally as far out there as the whack jobs on the right . On gay marriage it is as though you are at a complete loss to understand the absurdity of what you are suggesting. I don't frankly know how you can do it with a straight face - absolutely no pun intended.
What the two fringe groups have in common is that they have convinced huge numbers of sensible people in the moderate middle, passive people too easily intimidated, that it is taboo to challenge their agenda. If you dare, you are "ignorant", a racist, a homophobe, a sexist, a religious bigot, a knuckle-dragger, a flat earther, and the list goes on and on. Therefore many people don't dare have, let alone express, opinions on social issues as they fear being targeted as one or more of the above. More people than not simply say something like "I don't judge" or "it's not my place"and remain in their straight jackets. They think that somehow everything will work out ok if they just stay out of the way. Nothing could be further from the truth, of course, as history has shown time and time again. Widespread lingering apathy is at the core of our ills today and the reason that the rug that was our country has been yanked right out from under us.
The nutcase ideas that the two fringe groups shout back and forth at each other are like a perpetual chain reaction, with each group feeding the other's fervor. When will it end? When "the great silent majority", if you will, raises their collective voice and says enough. I'm doing my part and I can only hope that more and more will find the courage to speak up and re-take center stage.
There is nothing "absurd" about two people who love one another sharing the SAME rights as my wife and I do, denied from that Equality merely because they are of the same gender.
What is TRUELY absurd is that a minority is being discriminated against for an inherent and natural quality, in a Nation that prides herself on Equality.
To date, the only arguments offered are either religious in Nature, "Ick", or outlandish non sequiturs and strawmen such as "bloodlines", the g'ment somehow supporting child rearing, or definitions of marriage when there ISN'T any conrete definition of marriage.
And now, of course, an ad hominem fallacy of "Lemming Syndrom".
Its a choice the same as having sex with animals or children.
By condoning same-sex marriage it is saying this is normal behavior which it clearly isn't.
hillman
The entire medical and mental health professions state that YOUR opinion is wrong.
Sorry.
BTW, attempting to compare homosexuality to illegal activities is quite passé, most people who used it in the past have finally come to the realization that it is complete and utter bumpkiss.
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