I've changed my mind on ObamaCare (regular, solution, how much, insurance)
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Are nicotine addicts, alcoholics, and overeaters really thinking about medical costs when deciding whether or not to indulge? I doubt it. Addicts will feed their addiction whether or not they have health insurance.
Similarly, folks aren't suddenly going to decide to indulge because they acquire health insurance. The average nonsmoker doesn't abstain from cigarettes because he's worried about the *cost* of treating lung cancer; he doesn't want lung cancer in the first place.
Alcoholism, tobacco use and overeating are not unique to America. They are serious issues in every modern industrialized country. If you go to Denmark, you'll even find more fat people per capita than you in America. Japan has a huge number of smokers per capita. Virtually every one of these countries has universal health care. And, every one of these countries pays significantly less per capita to provide health care to their citizens. How do they do that?
For starters, once you accept the notion that universal healthcare is the way to go you have to do something we almost never do in America. You pay for health prevention rather than simply treating disease after it occurs. If you go to these countries, you'll find find billboard campaigns and other evidence that say things like "High Blood pressure? Call this number free to do something about it". Similar campaigns are directed at diabetes and other diseases where preventing complications will cut public health expenditures. In America, we do make very few attempts to prevent health problems because there is no financial incentive to prevent disease. All the incentives in the system are to simply treat disease after it has occurred.
If you go to the United Kingdom you'll find that any patient of the National Health Service can obtain high blood pressure medicine and cholestrol lowering medicine at virtually no cost. In America, drugs like Lipitor cost patients a fortune unless they belong to the right health plan. Guess which country has less heart disease?
The individual responsibility argument goes so far. Try blaming someone who has been forced to inhale second hand smoke from others all their life that lung cancer is "their fault". Or try blaming a wife who didn't know her husband was bisexual for the AIDS she contracted. Are we going to set up a court and decide who is "worthy" of treatment and who is not?
The only practical and decent thing to do is set up universal coverage and structure it to achieve the economies we can achieve by focusing on prevention of problems instead of treatment after the fact. Someday, we'll wise up in this country, but there sure are alot of dumb people out there who seem more interested in punishing someone than fixing a broken system.
I've changed my mind, too, I think I'd rather just let you die, after your family has sold their homes in order to pay your rising premiums, copays and preexisting conditions. Your family loses both you and their house. How can you beat a deal like that? Isn't that what America is all about? To hell with you, I'm watching out for myself. No, wait---I'm still broke. I guess I'm watching out for the insurance companies.
At least your consistant with making a perfect a§§ of yourself with the opening of each and every new thread. Geeeez
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCGranny
And yes, jtur88, you SHOULD let me die - because if I am abusing the future medical care in the exact same way I have seen Medicare and Medicaid patients do, making everyone pay for their own indulgences, there will eventually reach a point where the system will collapse of its own weight. No, addicts and alcoholics and other self-indulgers don't think about whose paying for their medical costs - because the ones I've treated are already on Medicaid or Medicare, (since Social Security considers addiction to be a disability) and DEMAND to be treated in just such a manner as I have described above.
I'm with ya granny. My people never benefited from handouts. Lame people who could care less about their life choices should not get rewarded for lame pursuits. They should pay more than others. As for that idiot, ignore him. Might be more to his cursing than meets an eye. Saw him somewhere on the web and he looks like a Dennis Weaver reject after a hard nights drunk. Seems like an old dude to, and maybe needing some Fed free handouts real soon. Too bad, because I use to like ol'Dennis McCloud.
In european countries you'll find there are heavy taxes on alcohol and tobacco. So if you live here you can smoke and drink yourself to death, you'll pay for the medical treatment but it probably won't save you- good luck if you need a new liver. Oh and if you're overweight you probably wont get treatment (unless its an emergency) until you loose the weight.
In european countries you'll find there are heavy taxes on alcohol and tobacco. So if you live here you can smoke and drink yourself to death, you'll pay for the medical treatment but it probably won't save you- good luck if you need a new liver. Oh and if you're overweight you probably wont get treatment (unless its an emergency) until you loose the weight.
Actually I reside here in Göteborg Sweden and they have drunks everywhere. Most are on government welfare rolls and don't pay a kronor in taxes because obviously they are too brain cell fried to hold down any type of responsible job. However, every one of them get the free health care and literally don't pay for it.
And everything is taxed to the Max here. Grocery (FOOD) is taxed at 25% sales tax. One of the biggest money makers for the government here is something that is government sponsored and promoted called Snus (a sort of tobacco paste, not chew). The bogus government scientific peer reviewed reports all insisted that though Snus contained way more nicotine than common everyday average cigarettes, it was'nt addictive and it would absolutely not cause cancer. Today all research shows that this was absolutely a bald faced lie. Think that taxes the healthcare system ???
I could not have said it better myself. I work full time, but my company does not provide any benefits, including insurance. I can not afford private health insurance, so I do without any health care. We could really learn something from our neighbors above (Canada).
In all likelihood, people in your situation will probably have to pay *something* in for healthcare. It might be subsidized but there is no "free".
(I figure there will be a lot of middle and lower middle class screaming when the bill shows up...and their unmarried sister\bro that barely works gets covered completely by being "poor".)
With that said, there are strings attached anytime you start taking someone elses money. I'm curious what may eventually be required, like mandatory classes etc. for people not taking care of themselves.
The place I work has transitioned to large deductible programs with Healthcare savings accounts. They are always pushing wellness plans etc.
Frankly, as a taxpayer...I'd be a little pissed to see some 30yo. 300lb person smoking a pack a day coming in for free healthcare since they barely work and have early onset diabetes, asthma etc. I'd expect them to contribute to solving the problem instead of propping up thier issues. Take the money and it should come with strings.
I'm curious... whatabout a person who has a disorder and was born with it/has it through no fault of their own. If they do not receive their medication they will slowly and often painfully waste away for years until death, but if they received the meds they would live a happy, healthy life. Their job USED to offer health insurance, but decided to cut everyone's hours so nobody is eligible anymore, but because of their disorder they will never be able to qualify for private insurance. They still make too much to be on medicaid, and are in a very specialized career where they were previously making plenty of money, but now they make less, but still not enough to get government insurance.
In all likelihood, people in your situation will probably have to pay *something* in for healthcare. It might be subsidized but there is no "free".
(I figure there will be a lot of middle and lower middle class screaming when the bill shows up...and their unmarried sister\bro that barely works gets covered completely by being "poor".)
With that said, there are strings attached anytime you start taking someone elses money. I'm curious what may eventually be required, like mandatory classes etc. for people not taking care of themselves.
The place I work has transitioned to large deductible programs with Healthcare savings accounts. They are always pushing wellness plans etc.
Frankly, as a taxpayer...I'd be a little pissed to see some 30yo. 300lb person smoking a pack a day coming in for free healthcare since they barely work and have early onset diabetes, asthma etc. I'd expect them to contribute to solving the problem instead of propping up thier issues. Take the money and it should come with strings.
I do not mind paying "something" for my health insurance. The problem I have is paying a ridiculous amount for it. For example, my friend works for the state, has 4 kids, and a wife. He makes $42,000 a year, and pays $120 a month for his whole family. I looked into getting the same coverage he gets for just me, and they want $300 a month!!!! I only make $19,000 a year, so this is not fair.
I'm curious... whatabout a person who has a disorder and was born with it/has it through no fault of their own. If they do not receive their medication they will slowly and often painfully waste away for years until death, but if they received the meds they would live a happy, healthy life. Their job USED to offer health insurance, but decided to cut everyone's hours so nobody is eligible anymore, but because of their disorder they will never be able to qualify for private insurance. They still make too much to be on medicaid, and are in a very specialized career where they were previously making plenty of money, but now they make less, but still not enough to get government insurance.
What should those people do?
These people really should have taken more care in choosing when those chose who their parents were. Clearly its their own fault. Perhaps if they die in the streets it will be a lesson to all of us to choose our ancestors wisely.
This is one of the most compelling arguments there is for universal healthcare. These people didn't choose to be sick. They didn't play a role in developing their illness. They just were unlucky. In all the other industrialized nations, it seems that there is a sort of mandate that the cost of these sorts of illnesses should be borne by society at large rather than by these unlucky individuals. Universal care exists in all the EU Countries, Japan, Australia, and New Zealand.
One of the most frustrating things about living in America though is that libertarianism is carried by some to a ridiculous extreme. Many of these people simply believe if you are unlucky enough to be born paralyzed, blind, or with some other incurable health problem that its just tough. Its not THEIR problem and THEY shouldn't have to worry about you.
I think we will get a law passed soon that will prohibit private insurance plans from discriminating against those with illnesses or disabilities. This, though, will do nothing to guarantee that the cost of such insurance will be affordable. Until we get universal healthcare, I suspect most people in this condition will struggle and eventually end up bankrupt and than entitled to Medicaid. Its not very smart. It would be smarter to offer universal coverage to these people and keep them working, paying taxes, and contributing to the treasury. Alot of people can't think that far ahead though.
This is one of the most compelling arguments there is for universal healthcare. These people didn't choose to be sick. They didn't play a role in developing their illness. They just were unlucky. In all the other industrialized nations, it seems that there is a sort of mandate that the cost of these sorts of illnesses should be borne by society at large rather than by these unlucky individuals. Universal care exists in all the EU Countries, Japan, Australia, and New Zealand.
One of the most frustrating things about living in America though is that libertarianism is carried by some to a ridiculous extreme. Many of these people simply believe if you are unlucky enough to be born paralyzed, blind, or with some other incurable health problem that its just tough. Its not THEIR problem and THEY shouldn't have to worry about you.
I think we will get a law passed soon that will prohibit private insurance plans from discriminating against those with illnesses or disabilities. This, though, will do nothing to guarantee that the cost of such insurance will be affordable. Until we get universal healthcare, I suspect most people in this condition will struggle and eventually end up bankrupt and than entitled to Medicaid. Its not very smart. It would be smarter to offer universal coverage to these people and keep them working, paying taxes, and contributing to the treasury. Alot of people can't think that far ahead though.
Agreed. The experience I'm describing is actually myself. I didn't choose to be born with what I have, and it's very rare so there was no routine genetic testing for it when I was conceived. When I was diagnosed, it shed a lot of light on my family because I have had two family members that died and had symptoms of what I have now, and now we're pretty sure they didn't die of 'natural causes'.
I'm currently dealing with an 'insurance' issue because my insurance absolutely will not authorize me to see my specialist for my disorder, and instead referred me to a local doctor who has never even heard of what I have. How is that supposed to help? I even asked if I could pay cash and see him and they said if I did that nothing the doctor said or requested (I'm supposed to get MRIs, Dexa Scans and Xrays done soon because of recent complications) would be valid.
It really does hurt when I read and hear people say that if you can't afford the procedures that you should die...death would be long and painful for me. It would just be nice to have a public options for backup... luckily I have decent insurance right now, but who knows what the future holds?
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We could really learn something from our neighbors above (Canada).
