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They can get acute care in a hospital emergency room (at taxpayer expense ultimately), which is a very expensive way to treat chronic conditions. Plus, ultimately chronic conditions need to be treated chronically, not acutely. How about the guy with high blood pressure who can't afford to pay for his medication, consequently ends up in the emergency with a stroke, gets $100k worth of free care involving surgery, ICU, etc, then ends up discharged still without the ability to pay for blood pressure medication.
Perhaps the answer is to deny free care at emergency rooms and let the poor die in the street?
I think you didn't get my point...
the poster I was responding to was bringing the point that middle class will suffer while poor are getting covered under a new revisions to the healthcare system. I was saying that it's not the pitfall of healthcare reform that will create such a situation where middle class is disadvantaged, but rather that the existing healthcare system have created this very situation in the first place.
We already have a system where those who work for a living are getting the short end of the stick as they don't qualify for Medicaid, but are yet too poor to afford insurance or get jobs that provide it. Those who are poor enough to pass a certain 'threshold' will get treated for free by getting Medicaid or by simply going to the emergency room to get it done inefficiently as you have stated in your post.
Now I don't have to worry about what my smoking does to me. You are all going to pay for my emphysema, lung, mouth, and throat cancer surgeries, chemo, and all the cures that the government approves. Thanks so much!
My alcoholism? Hey, no problem. You can all pay for my repetitive treatments at Betty Ford or any other clinic. After all, I'm one of those "poor people without insurance" everyone is always pontificating about. Now I can do whatever I want, get as drunk as often as I want - and no matter whom I smash into, I'm covered! My liver is going? Well, it's not MY fault I'm addicted, now is it? Ya'll have all said so! I need a new liver, and I deserve it as much as anyone else who has never had a drink.
Oh, I'm overweight, too. But hey, who cares? That's your problem now. High cholesterol? Heart problems? Breathing problems? Even Acid reflux? There's a pill for everything, and I'll need 'em all. Pass the pizza and the beer, and don't stint on the german chocolate cake! Diabetes? Who cares? You're going to pay for those pills, and then the bottles of insulin as I need them. So what if I lose my eyesight, or end up in a wheelchair with my legs cut off? That's now your problem.
I forgot to mention that I am also very fond of drugs. I need drugs to sleep, and drugs to get up and do things, like run to the store for more pizza. I am quite fond of self-medicating, with all of the emotional angst I am suffering. Coke is great for getting up out of the sleepy doldrums of the Quaaludes I took last night. Liver damage? Meth teeth? Skin diseases? It's none of YOUR business what caused all that - fork over your cash and make sure that I'm taken care of. Stop whining! You can't tell me how to live my life! How dare you criticize ME - you are infringing my rights if you do, or if you think I don't deserve the same health care as poor, hardworking you or your children!
Yes, I am completely down with this whole free health care thing now. Thanks in advance for all of your contributions to my lifestyle! This is gonna be AWESOME!
I note your sarcasm. But if what you think would happen is correct, that is we would subsidize the care for everyone's vices. Why do countries that have socailized medicine have lower rates of all the diseases you mentioned. Could it be that Americans as a whole just sick glutonous people?
Perhaps the answer is to deny free care at emergency rooms and let the poor die in the street?
No that is not the answer! although there are hospitals that would deny care to those who don't have insurance. the answer is to have healthcare for all, I am in favor of universal healthcare even though I myself can afford and have been paying for private insurance for years.
The way our healthcare is structured right now is not the answer, even though I have insurance and I choose it myself, I don't feel insured as I've never truly tested whether my insurance would willingly pay for anything drastic should anything happen to me. So far, I've been paying for most of my medical expenses and then some out of pocket as I have deductible I never meet and of course everything like tests and preventative care go towards your deductible. If something were to happen and insurance would have to pony up 100K or more to pay for me, I would want to know what kind of harassment they would put me through. I dread that day hope it will never come.
So, bottom line, I don't trust insurance based on how much I have to fight with them for things that don't cost much and I've had 3 insurance plans. I don't trust them because the fees they 'negotiate' actually end up being higher than what an uninsured cash patient would pay. I found out the hard way. Insurance and hospitals capitalize on people like me, who pay premiums but don't consume much services, who go for basic checkups and a few basic tests. They overcharge high deductible patients for these basic tests and procedures. So far, I paid waaaay too much premiums and out of pocket costs (thousands and thousands of dollars) than the costs of services I actually received had I paid cash. So, I consider my medical insurance as nothing more than 'insurance' - in case something really bad happens, only then it may start paying off to have it, like insurance against fire or earthquake or a car insurance. It is absolutely useless as a 'medical' insurance as you end up paying for your medical care out of pocket and at inflated prices whereas you will be better off shopping around 'cash only' screening facilities or going overseas for same routine checkups and treatments.
So, yes, I am getting screwed, even though I can afford it. It doesn't make it sweeter. I would rather pay these thousands of dollars towards nationalized healthcare system where I would know I would be covered no matter what. No matter if I were to experience hardship, lose my income, lose my ability to work, I would still get care, because bad things can happen to anyone and unless you are sitting on nice 10 million saved for your family you aren't really 'insured' from life's dark surprises.
I note your sarcasm. But if what you think would happen is correct, that is we would subsidize the care for everyone's vices. Why do countries that have socailized medicine have lower rates of all the diseases you mentioned. Could it be that Americans as a whole just sick glutonous people?
the reason why they have lower rates of certain diseases is because preventative care is free. Here, it's not free. For those who pay for their own insurance preventative care comes out of their pockets in form of deductible and copay. so for many it's a following dilemma: "oh, I feel maybe something is wrong with me, should I go to the doctor and run some tests? do I have extra 2K laying around I can spend on some tests in case my doctor thinks I need them? Oh, maybe not, not this time, I am not that sick anyway"
Question to those who are advocating that healthcare is something that has to be 'earned' and not given. so... how much to you really have to earn to 'earn' the healthcare?
No, seriously, let's say I want to prepare for a rainy day, how much do I save to cover all the possible unforeseen medical costs at prices I can't even find out as there is no transparency in pricing for medical procedures? 1 million? 2 million? How about for the entire family? How do I know my insurance would cover everything should anything bad happen? How do I know if tomorrow I would be able to afford my premium newly raised due to my newly found condition?
Not Stan here, but I bet he doesn't reply. What I've noticed about the rightwing in these healthcare debates is that they have a certain good/evil type of mindset. Alot of them truly can't differentiate between say the criminal who has healthcare problems because he got injured falling out of a window trying to burglarize a building and the totally innocent child who developed insulin-dependent diabetes at two years of age.
In their mindset all "deserving people" are somehow taken care of by the existing system. If they are not, hey, they can always look to private charity which will, of course, be available.
I'd really like to see those who oppose universal health care speak to the issues we raise instead of just mouthing platitudes about personal responsibility.
Not Stan here, but I bet he doesn't reply. What I've noticed about the rightwing in these healthcare debates is that they have a certain good/evil type of mindset. Alot of them truly can't differentiate between say the criminal who has healthcare problems because he got injured falling out of a window trying to burglarize a building and the totally innocent child who developed insulin-dependent diabetes at two years of age.
In their mindset all "deserving people" are somehow taken care of by the existing system. If they are not, hey, they can always look to private charity which will, of course, be available.
I'd really like to see those who oppose universal health care speak to the issues we raise instead of just mouthing platitudes about personal responsibility.
I've never really received a straight answer on the chronic condition stuff, though. I have had people on this forum tell me 'bummer, it's your problem', 'find a better job' and my personal favorite 'find a charity that will supply the drug to you'.
I do have insurance, but for me (and others afflicted with chronic problems) it's a catch 22... I could get my meds and be fine, but to get my meds I have to find a job that has GOOD health insurance (not mediocre...my drug costs far too much) but if I don't get my meds, I can't work. Right now I'm on a drug holiday because of a problem at the manufacturing plant and it takes every ounce of strength I have to get through an 8 hour day at work. Walking across the hangar leaves my knees aching and me out of breath (I was biking 20+ miles a day less than 2 months ago).
I really like hearing peoples opinions on those that have these chronic conditions. It really puts a stick in their cogs
Now I don't have to worry about what my smoking does to me. You are all going to pay for my emphysema, lung, mouth, and throat cancer surgeries, chemo, and all the cures that the government approves. Thanks so much!
My alcoholism? Hey, no problem. You can all pay for my repetitive treatments at Betty Ford or any other clinic. After all, I'm one of those "poor people without insurance" everyone is always pontificating about. Now I can do whatever I want, get as drunk as often as I want - and no matter whom I smash into, I'm covered! My liver is going? Well, it's not MY fault I'm addicted, now is it? Ya'll have all said so! I need a new liver, and I deserve it as much as anyone else who has never had a drink.
Oh, I'm overweight, too. But hey, who cares? That's your problem now. High cholesterol? Heart problems? Breathing problems? Even Acid reflux? There's a pill for everything, and I'll need 'em all. Pass the pizza and the beer, and don't stint on the german chocolate cake! Diabetes? Who cares? You're going to pay for those pills, and then the bottles of insulin as I need them. So what if I lose my eyesight, or end up in a wheelchair with my legs cut off? That's now your problem.
I forgot to mention that I am also very fond of drugs. I need drugs to sleep, and drugs to get up and do things, like run to the store for more pizza. I am quite fond of self-medicating, with all of the emotional angst I am suffering. Coke is great for getting up out of the sleepy doldrums of the Quaaludes I took last night. Liver damage? Meth teeth? Skin diseases? It's none of YOUR business what caused all that - fork over your cash and make sure that I'm taken care of. Stop whining! You can't tell me how to live my life! How dare you criticize ME - you are infringing my rights if you do, or if you think I don't deserve the same health care as poor, hardworking you or your children!
Yes, I am completely down with this whole free health care thing now. Thanks in advance for all of your contributions to my lifestyle! This is gonna be AWESOME!
Got news for you. If you are older than 65, we are paying for all this already. Its called Medicare. Not 65? If you're poor, broke and can't find a job we are paying for all this already too. Its called Medicaid. Work for a big company or a small one with health insurance? Guess what? All the people who contribute to your health insurance are probably paying for your problems as well. This idea that somehow all these people with the problems you describe above will somehow not get their health care paid for if we don't enact health insurance reform is just silly. Its being paid for right now by either public or private insurance.
I really get a laugh when I see old people saying crap like "I don't want the government in my health care". Its there already. Medicare is the primary payor for the elderly and the sole payor for many of them. Oh, and some other facts: Medicare has the lowest administration cost of any insurance plan out there. Medicare is the least susceptible to inflation of any health care plan.
The moral of the story? The government or the public is already involved in everyone's healthcare. It would make alot more sense to acknowledge this fact and realize all the economies we can from it.
Great minds think alike. Thanks for saving me key strokes.
How much are you willing to pay for your health insurance? Some people who I have tallked to thinks that this health care is going to be free. I think that the peole who is for this public option thinks that they will get this for free. They are talking about fining anyone who don't have Health Ins up to 13% of the pay check. Is that what you uninsured people want? Cause that is what is going to happen. If you can't afford it now , how are you going to pay the fine? I have not heard what is going to cost yet? That is like me selling you my house and after you agree to buy it, then I'll tell you how much you owe me.
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what are you willing to pay
