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I myself make over the 50,000 mark. I live in a good neighborhood, and am supporting two other people on my income. I have a nice truck, a boat, and I don't worry about bills to much.
That being said, I'm generally the exception. I got an outstanding job right out of college, and they pay well. I also made a name for myself, and got several raises along the way.
I have freinds who I went to school with, who are making half of what I make. Their grades were close to mine, its just the chances weren't there for them. They need help with down payments for everything big they buy. Thats with a college education. You can forget it if you just have a high school diploma. Be ready to work in a factory, and barely make it by.
I think you're selling yourself short here, Memphis. You most likely have more social intelligence than your peers. I think this is one thing that makes a big difference in how much people earn. Book learning and degrees will only take you so far.
To be honest there is no real fix in sight and all of these points will get worse. We are seeing the early stages of a country who was on top heading the direction of the USSR and other poor countries.
I disagree with your first point about there not being a fix. There is a fix (really more a series of fixes). But there doesn't seem to be the will to do it, either politically or from the average citizen.
Unfortunately, I completely agree with your 2nd point. The USA is definitely going downhill. All the debt that has been run up by both average citizens and the government is a major indicator of the downhill slide we're in.
The current situation is just a facet of the two hundred year old continium of man migrating from one job to the next, each job in turn being lost to the power of technology. Some have tried to pose the latter day business model as something new, it isn't, the labor force has had to keep reinventing itself. Once the pig iron and lumber had went to automation industrial workers went to being Cops, teachers, Lawyers, Nurses, salespeople, custodians and the like. All in all, the present is nothing more than the past in a new suit of clothes. We don't know what the future holds but we're fairly certain that things won't be going back to a situation that is as dead and gone as the Buffalo.
Unemployment will be coming to your town soon, it already has in most places, it won't be just the singles that suffer, the playing field is about to be leveled and a whole lot of people will be asking if it is their fault that they no longer can find work. Of course those who understand the history of work will have to reinvent themselves once again.
You make some good points in your post. One thing, though....is that the rate of change is so much faster than it was in the past. Jobs become obsolete much more quickly. And if you're in a job that doesn't really evolve, it ends up becoming obsolete. Of course, these 'commodified' jobs are the kinds of jobs employers like to create because they're more easily automated or outsourced....but then the employee is left holding the bag....needing to take more time out of the work force to be re-trained.
So I think our educational model doesn't really reflect this reality. It still operates as if you're going to do one job/career for the rest of your life.
Switching jobs/careers sounds great in theory. But in practice, it usually comes at a high cost in both time and money to the person affected.
Switching jobs/careers sounds great in theory. But in practice, it usually comes at a high cost in both time and money to the person affected.
I know many people who still blame Bush for losing their "good jobs" more than 8 years ago. These weren't "great" but they paid the bills. None of them have more than a HS Diploma.
They all live with their parents. During a recent visit home, I had a really hard time keeping my mouth clamped with one of their parents, going off about the former president.
If you can't find a job after 8 years for more than minimum wage, a person with any self esteem or self worth would look for further training, number one.
Number two, there ARE one income households with two adults, two kids where the income does not exceed $40k and the family does not starve. We were one of those for 7 years. We know several of those families even now that our income has gone up significantly.
It's all about CHOICES.
We did not buy a home valued at the height of the market - rather than pay $500k, we decided to rent and wait it out. (The houses in that neighborhood are now valued around $175k - if anything, or would be if anything were selling)
We do not own an LCD TV
We are once again a one car family (I figured it would be cheaper to rent a car 2-3 days a month when necessary. And in the past 12 years, about 8 were 1 car and I never had to rent a car in town)
We have cable, but not the premium channels
We have cell phones, but we do not live on them
It blows my mind to meet a family where even the 6 & 7 year olds have LCD TVs in their rooms, they each have an XBOX, Nintendo DS, their own computer, etc - and they complain about being broke.
It boggles the mind when you meet a 20 or 30 something single person with a decent job ($30-50k), no kids, still living with their parents and bemoaning their credit card debt and inability to live on their own - it's almost sad when they use their new iPOD to show off the pictures of their latest trip to some exotic location, wearing $100 jeans, $100 shoes and (for women) a $300 handbag.
The truth of the matter is though, that those of us who were taught personal responsibility/accountability may end up needing help from our parents at different points in our lives, but we're about 99% financially independent by the age of 22/23.
Switching jobs/careers sounds great in theory. But in practice, it usually comes at a high cost in both time and money to the person affected.
I know many people who still blame Bush for losing their "good jobs" more than 8 years ago. These weren't "great" but they paid the bills. None of them have more than a HS Diploma.
They all live with their parents. During a recent visit home, I had a really hard time keeping my mouth clamped with one of their parents, going off about the former president.
If you can't find a job after 8 years for more than minimum wage, a person with any self esteem or self worth would look for further training, number one.
Number two, there ARE one income households with two adults, two kids where the income does not exceed $40k and the family does not starve. We were one of those for 7 years. We know several of those families even now that our income has gone up significantly.
It's all about CHOICES.
We did not buy a home valued at the height of the market - rather than pay $500k, we decided to rent and wait it out. (The houses in that neighborhood are now valued around $175k - if anything, or would be if anything were selling)
We do not own an LCD TV
We are once again a one car family (I figured it would be cheaper to rent a car 2-3 days a month when necessary. And in the past 12 years, about 8 were 1 car and I never had to rent a car in town)
We have cable, but not the premium channels
We have cell phones, but we do not live on them
It blows my mind to meet a family where even the 6 & 7 year olds have LCD TVs in their rooms, they each have an XBOX, Nintendo DS, their own computer, etc - and they complain about being broke.
It boggles the mind when you meet a 20 or 30 something single person with a decent job ($30-50k), no kids, still living with their parents and bemoaning their credit card debt and inability to live on their own - it's almost sad when they use their new iPOD to show off the pictures of their latest trip to some exotic location, wearing $100 jeans, $100 shoes and (for women) a $300 handbag.
The truth of the matter is though, that those of us who were taught personal responsibility/accountability may end up needing help from our parents at different points in our lives, but we're about 99% financially independent by the age of 22/23.
I totally agree with many of your points here.
Blaming any president for a job you lost 8 years ago is pathetic.
And if you read other posts of mine in this thread, you know I think its completely unnecessary that such a high % of Americans are living at or beyond their means.
But I also think it's important to realize that this is not an either/or, all-or-nothing proposition. And there are some things that individuals have little direct control over that really do need reform at a more collective level such as:
1. Health care costs. This is something individuals have little direct control over. And Congress & the President seem hell bent on throwing even more tax dollars at a bloated and inefficient system than actually doing something to rein in costs. Of course, if we'd had a cash based system like we did before World War 2 health care costs would not be so high in the first place. But the health care crisis is not something today's young people can be held directly responsible for, yet it affects them greatly.
2. Education costs. A lot of people are going to college even though it is a waste for them to be there. We need more relevant vocational ed in high school so people with diplomas can work at jobs with living wages. Subsidizing unnecessary college degrees is also very expensive for the taxpayer. Colleges, for their part, have done little to keep costs in line. This whole idea that all colleges should offer every major under the sun is contributing to the cost problem.
3. Transportation. We need to increase housing density...I'm not talking wall to wall high rises. But even smaller detached houses on smaller lots would be a good start. We need decent mass transit so that people are not forced to own cars. We need cities with walkable downtowns instead of car oriented strip malls.
. . . and when you make the decision to live that way. The average American would not be able to quit his job if he won a million dollars in the lottery. The payout would be 50K a year, but Mr. Everyman already makes $45K and is in debt, so he is spending over $50K a year and just getting by, and has already committed himelf to that cost of living. Once you have a house and a few cars and kids, you cant back out. He will make 2-million working, and can't afford the pay cut to mere millionaire status.
My neighbor is a 25-yo woman, gone back to school to upgrade to a BN degree. She'll make, let's say, $50K a year. If she lives like she does now, and like I do, she can live on a quarter of that, and save half of what she earns, and still have spending money. So at the age of 50, she can have a half a million dollars in the bank. Or, she can daycare for squawling grandchildren while their single mom is telemarketing. Her call, but she has to make it soon.
If I'm lucky, I make half of that. But I survive just fine on that income. No savings, 100% to expenses. But I have food and shelter.
By the way, what about people who become physically disabled at a young age? I know of a few of them. One had cancer as a teenager, and it destroyed her ability to use her left arm. Another one has a back problem so severe that she can't be in one position over 2 hours (sitting, standing, laying down) and can't lift over 10 pounds. Another one got into a motorcycle at 18, and has trouble walking, kneeling, sitting down--or a myriad of other things that "able" people take for granted every day.
I'm not going to say what I make on a public forum, but I will say that the national household income is around $50K correct? I do make more than that, but I can guarantee you it is not 3 or 4 times that.
I'd agree with you, a million dollars is not much anymore. It may seem like a large amount, but it can be gone as you as you get it. I don't think the average American could afford to completely quit their job even if they won a few million in the lottery, they may be able to drive a nicer car to work though .
"ESTIMATED STATE MEDIAN INCOME, BY FAMILY SIZE AND BY STATE FOR FY 2009"
The most interesting thing about this chart is the lowest state. Not the usual poor southeastern state you would expect, but New Mexico. The median income per household in Mora County NM is $29,000, The median for the whole state of Connecticut is $66,000.
When there is an entire county in which the median household income is less than double the legal minimum wage, there is something seriously dysfunctional about the principles upon which the national economy is based. In Mora County, half of all families have less income than two people working at rock bottom minimum wage with no overtime.
Last edited by jtur88; 12-12-2009 at 08:31 AM..
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