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When is the last time you've known a criminal or racist animal? When is the last time your animal made a judgement of a person over what they've done in the past, instead of what they do in the present?
Past behavior is a good indicator of future behavior. ( Whether animals or humans)
A dog that has a history of biting people shouldn't be trusted.
A human that has a history of assaulting people shouldn't be trusted.
Again, that line of argument doesn't make sense to me. How we destroy is significant to us. We can certainly destroy ourselves and are bretheren mammals. But, we will not destroy the world. I'm reminded of a microbiology class prof I had once. He was always going on about the winners- bacteria. If anything is significant, it's bacteria. Bacteria consume all things alive and dead. If anything is left at the end of the day, it will be bacteria.
Human memory serves as an adaptive response. You value this response because you are human. Even so, animals have memory. For example...
the article addresses memory and how it contribute to alternative behavior. It's not as if Jays developed memory due to the experiments. We are now simply aware of it. And who is to say what animals do with the memory they have? We have no idea of an animal's capacity to suffer. For all we know it reaches heights unimaginable to humans. Of course, all we know is what we know and we do relate it to our own experiences. Animals cry when they're pain, just as humans. Animals react when they are lonely, often poorly, just as humans. Animals develop anxiety, tics, mental problems, etc, just as humans. They have brains, nervous systems, awareness, and an ability to interact with the world around them.
I don't use a human rubric. For me, it's not a matter of human degree. They have their own trip going on. It's just as special as anything else depending on who you ask.
That is what you are doing, tho. That is what most people do. Frankly, I'm on the fence when it comes to humans' capability of empathy and compassion. We are aware of it, tho, few employ it. Humans, like most animals, are largely self-serving.
Well if we were to get into the specifics of why people value humans more than animals, I think it becomes a religious matter. Humans tend to believe that there is something different about them that makes them special, therefore worthy of special attention.
Humans are indeed self serving to a large degree but I think that to an extent you can both be self-serving and self-less. Sometimes being self-serving doesn't impede our ability to help other people. Sometimes it may aid that ability, in fact. Take for instance eating and drinking. It is what we need to survive, and without survival, our methods of serving other people are limited (one could argue we'd be fixing the surplus population).
Having said that, I still agree that being self-serving very much impedes empathetic action. But I think that people who murder and rape other people are outliers, although they are becoming more and more common it seems. Murder and rape are two of the most selfish acts one can do so I think that the fact that we don't do them more often is evidence of two things: 1, we are afraid of the consequences, and 2, we have compassion.
You know now that I think of it, I think we value dogs and pets, etc. for exactly the opposite reason we value humans. Humans have the capacity for good or bad, and we value them in general because we appreciate the fact that they choose to do good. Dogs don't have as large a destructive or constructive ability, but we value them because they don't disappoint us or let us down like humans do. They unconditionally love us.
At least this is from the perspective of a pet owner. Humans can bring tons of happiness to our life, but they also can hurt us. With them, our emotions are up and down. Dogs can't let us down quite so much or make us quite so happy generally so it is much more stable, and we value the fact that dogs/cats, etc. are consistently there to cheer us up.
Originally Posted by TKramar When is the last time you've known a criminal or racist animal? When is the last time your animal made a judgement of a person over what they've done in the past, instead of what they do in the present?
Well actually, I had a dog and Ive known other dogs that would bring things home from the neighbors (stealing) like baseball gloves, shoes, dishes, etc.
I have a horse that has a fit every time she see a black person (racist?)
Ive had many animals that appear to remember negative acts by certain people and react by avoidance or agression everytime they encounter that person.
^Dogs may not have the same sense of property as we do, but they often do have a sense of territory. As for the second part, I guess I phrased that the wrong way. And even that's not quite always true either.
I did not intend that a dog will not remember past actions of a person, when that person does bad to IT, but that for the most part, a dog will not care about the past actions of a person where those actions did not relate to it.
And that's not entirely true, as I do think dogs can sense certain character flaws in some people...almost as if they can smell them.
Well if we were to get into the specifics of why people value humans more than animals, I think it becomes a religious matter. Humans tend to believe that there is something different about them that makes them special, therefore worthy of special attention.
Yea, sure. I agree that's clear as day.
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Humans are indeed self serving to a large degree but I think that to an extent you can both be self-serving and self-less. Sometimes being self-serving doesn't impede our ability to help other people. Sometimes it may aid that ability, in fact. Take for instance eating and drinking. It is what we need to survive, and without survival, our methods of serving other people are limited (one could argue we'd be fixing the surplus population).
To be clear, and I probably mentioned this and forgot, I'm fully aware that some are capable of great compassion; be it innate or cultivated. There are awesome humans all over the place. I don't find survival sacrifice as a required characteristic for compassion, either. It's not relative nor even on the discussion table for me. Inconvenience, OTOH, is not palpable for many, let alone anything that extreme.
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You know now that I think of it, I think we value dogs and pets, etc. for exactly the opposite reason we value humans. Humans have the capacity for good or bad, and we value them in general because we appreciate the fact that they choose to do good. Dogs don't have as large a destructive or constructive ability, but we value them because they don't disappoint us or let us down like humans do. They unconditionally love us.
I'm sure that can be found to be the case many times over. It's true. Animals are not bound to a moral construct. They have not eaten from the tree of knowledge, etc. As far as the love we receive, that can vary. It makes me think of one of my cats, Bella. She's a rescue. I took her from a crazy lady in a building I used to live in when Bella's 4 year old brother died from neglect. She's a scaredy cat and largely lives under the bed. She resides in my home and has a completely free ride. She's my poor baby and she doesn't have much to give, and that's ok.
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At least this is from the perspective of a pet owner. Humans can bring tons of happiness to our life, but they also can hurt us. With them, our emotions are up and down. Dogs can't let us down quite so much or make us quite so happy generally so it is much more stable, and we value the fact that dogs/cats, etc. are consistently there to cheer us up.
So, true. My dad has a cat and they live alone together. He's become a recluse and after 3 failed marriages it's him and the cat against the world lol. Pets are good for people in so many ways. I certainly love my dog, but she benefits me in many ways beyond our cuddling. She has me out walking at least 2 hours a day. That's good for my health. I always take my camera with me, being a hobby photographer, so she makes me keep up with my hobby. And she doesn't like me being on the net! She always interrupts me. Again, a good thing! Like right now...
Well actually, I had a dog and Ive known other dogs that would bring things home from the neighbors (stealing) like baseball gloves, shoes, dishes, etc.
I have a horse that has a fit every time she see a black person (racist?)
Ive had many animals that appear to remember negative acts by certain people and react by avoidance or agression everytime they encounter that person.
I recall that as children we learned very early to stay away from a dog raised in a black neighborhood. Likewise the black kids stayed away from dogs raised in a predominately white neighborhood. Animals, at least dogs, do appear to discriminate based on light and dark skin color or some other physical or cultural difference they can detect. This however is not to attribute a higher anthropomorphic characteristic to dogs simply since this is more likely a more basic behavior seen in many higher mammalian species dealing with self preservation.
I recall that as children we learned very early to stay away from a dog raised in a black neighborhood. Likewise the black kids stayed away from dogs raised in a predominately white neighborhood. Animals, at least dogs, do appear to discriminate based on light and dark skin color or some other physical or cultural difference they can detect. This however is not to attribute a higher anthropomorphic characteristic to dogs simply since this is more likely a more basic behavior seen in many higher mammalian species dealing with self preservation.
Is this (bolded) info from a study? I once post about being at a relatives farm as a child watching the calves. They were mostly angus but there was one white one and about 3 black ones appeared to be bullying it. My cousins said it was because it was white (different) than the others.
I have a horse that has a fit every time she see a black person (racist?)
Ive had many animals that appear to remember negative acts by certain people and react by avoidance or agression everytime they encounter that person.
Was your horse ever a victim of a bad act by a black person?
I've had one dog that had a fit anytime she saw a black person. And all of my dogs have wanted to chase and attack my black cat, but never my brown cat. However, I feel that this is due to the dark colouration of their skin and fur making their eyes (particularly the whites of their eyes) a prominent feature (also dark skin makes white teeth in a smile very obvious)... which makes the dogs think that black people and black cats are challenging them to a fight.
My puppies used to bark at my old white neighbor because he used to stop and stare at them over the fence. Once he stopped looking at them and instead treated them as invisible, they stopped barking at him.
Anyway, when dealing with any strange animal, it's not a very good idea to stare directly into their eyes.
You obviously have never owned a cat. They wake up every morning (at 4 a.m.) wondering (with loud meows) how they can make us look stupid.
My room mate's cat greets me at the door when I get in and demands attention.
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They wake up every morning (at 4 a.m.) wondering (with loud meows) how they can make us look stupid.