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Just because a newer battery technology comes to market does not mean that older technology is suddenly obsolete. Lithium-ion batteries were first sold for commercial purposes in 1991 yet Lead-acid batteries that were first used in 1859 and still used today.
Just because a newer battery technology comes to market does not mean that older technology is suddenly obsolete. Lithium-ion batteries were first sold for commercial purposes in 1991 yet Lead-acid batteries that were first used in 1859 and still used today.
And lead acid batteries are primarily used in regular cars. These batteries are recycled problem is the recycling places don't want to be held to high standards so they are nasty lead toxic dumps. So one hand you got recycling taking lead batteries out so they aren't dumped in landfills and the lead isn't being so much of a problem there, on the other hand the recycling place is now a problem.
The greater good does demand recycling and yes solar panels are recycled.
Does powering up electric vehicles produce pollution? Yes but not as much as pumping gasoline into regular cars. Electric power plants that run on coal, oil can have things put on them to cap down on the pollution also the production of power is more efficient at the plant.
An internal combustion engine only runs at about 20% efficiency with most of the potential energy in the fossil fuel being wasted. Using that fossil fuel to produce electricity is way more efficient. An electric motor like in the Tesla runs at 100% efficiency.
Electric cars at one point in the early 20th century outsold gas cars and were considered the better car and had more range. Yes electric cars existed back then and even had batteries. What doomed the electric car was the discovery of gasoline in Texas. No gasoline being discovered in Texas would have encouraged much more research in battery tech etc and well having a grid to power electric vehicles would have been so much easier to build since it would be able to be built with the electric grid for houses etc.
On the subject of recycling all those used lithium ion batteries. As the batteries become cheaper to manufacture, the incentive to recycle used batteries gets to the point where the recycling costs make it difficult to justify the costs to do so.
How many light vehicles are sold each year? Lets take the conservative estimate of a million.
Since we're all imagining now, imagine if a great percentage of those vehicles use electric as their primary means of energy for locomotion. What happens to nearly a million used batteries per year if the cost to produce new ones is close to the cost to recycle one? What?
Yes, as manufacturing scales up, the costs to produce a new battery drops considerably meaning the recoverable materials in the used battery have lesser value as well. This works across the board for all markets, including batteries. Materials in products that have the highest value are the most cost effective to recover through recycling. Make something cheap and no one wants to recycle it, especially the manufacturer because there is very little money to be made doing so.
Anyone know what it takes to recycle advanced lithium batteries? Not a simple thing nor is it cost effective unless the battery is of a certain type and so far it seems only one company wants to get involved in doing that.
Cars are among the most recyclable/reused items around. Nearly every part of a car is either recycled or reused, a true miracle if you want to talk about reducing environmental impact after a manufacturing process. Guess what part is recycled most? The lead-acid battery? Why? Because there is a lot of money to be made recovering lead that is why. There is no significant amount, if any, lead in advanced batteries used in electric cars. The metals used for the most part have little value because there isn't much of it in each battery.
No one would throw out a damaged cup made from gold or silver right? Would you throw out one made from ceramics? People do, every day. Ever hear of them throwing out silver or gold cups? Why not throw out the one made of gold or even silver? Simple, the materials are worth so much there is an incentive to do something with that material.
The less expensive something becomes to manufacture, the less incentive there is to recycle the materials used to make then in the first place. It is a financial equation every business uses. It is not enough to break even or make a small amount of money through a recycling effort on the part of the manufacturer because most manufacturing can't survive on very low percentages of profit.
On another thread (the will the USA ever get rid of plastic bags thread) the big issue was that those thin plastic bags weren't being recycled but one would recycle or reuse heavier bags made from many other materials? Why is that?
Because it costs so little to make a thin plastic bag that has so little value that no one wants to recycle them, including to people who claim "green" is the way to go? Now, wouldn't you think that anyone claiming to be "green" would also recycle the thin plastic bags and thus reduce the need to create laws banning them?
Now what happens when the costs to manufacture batteries used in electric cars is reduced to the point that there is very little financial benefit to recycling the old battery as opposed to simply making a new one?
None of those swallowing every word uttered by Musk can or will answer that question directly. They will jump around the question because they don't know but Musk does. Just to help them out, the buyer of the electric car or the government (same as the buyer since where do you think taxes come from?) will subsidize the recycling efforts.
With enough money thrown at it, anything can be recycled, including bad information or press releases which is what is being done. Musk has all the answers. Yeah, right. Because he said so.
But gee, subsidizing recycling is ok so what is the question? Well, if money can be thrown at the recycling problem then hey, why not throw it at the current problems and figure that out instead of creating new ones?
There is a tremendous amount of materials, especially oil in used tires. Why not recover the oil and reduce the need to drill for it? Because it costs too much money to do it. But that could be solved by subsidizing the process so what is the problem? Of course, supposedly we're trying to get off oil but then at the same time our own government is boasting about how much we increased our oil exports. Open wide, now swallow.
The question remains, what are the specific plans to recover the materials used in advanced batteries when the costs to make new ones are coming down very fast and Musk's own plant will accelerate that manufacturing cost reduction to the point where it doesn't make economic sense to recycle the battery?
Talk isn't a plan. Theories aren't plans. PR isn't a plan either.
Should we do nothing? Hardly and no one is advocating doing nothing. Instead, before a new problem is created, how about solving the old ones or at least have a concrete plan to insure problems we create in the future don't replicate the problem we have already.
Got it, so long as one thing is less damaging than the other thing it is great.
Solar Panels. Seen anyone recycling them from consumer use? Nope, they get trashed, often broken up into small pieces and thrown away.
Now to something you said. Where did I say that battery production was worse than processing oil? The fact and lets stick to facts for once, is that I didn't say anything of the sort. I put forth a question and possible scenario, for that I don't need proof.
I didn't claim anything, you implied I did.
Then we get to imagine this and that. Well then, imagine if in 10 years a completely new technology is created that makes lithium ion batteries obsolete and because that technology take s a different course, the materials from the lithium ion batteries can't easily be recycled or reused in the new batteries.
Imagine what happens then to all the existing lithium ion batteries.
Steel, nickel, tin and carbon. Common, yes, clean, hardly. Take a wild guess how large amounts of steel, nickel, tin and carbon are processed into the forms needed to make batteries. Any idea?
Like I said, instead of thinking only about what goes into your flashlight, think about what it takes to make that battery. And lets not forget that batteries don't produce anything, they store energy potential.
Where are the specifics on what will happen to millions of batteries of the size being put into electric cars and what happens when the technology changes as it will since demand for them will also propel the development of new battery technology.
Does that mean not making electric cars? Hardly but are any of the concerns about what will happen to millions of batteries be answered? Not really. But what does that matter right? So long as it isn't oil who cares?
If not gas-powered vehicles, what exactly do you think we should compare EVs to?
I bold your claims about lithium ion batteries and electric vehicles below. I also underline the irrelevant comparison you make between lithium ion batteries and "clean diesel" and oil companies. Putting a question mark at the end of a statement is either: 1) useless discourse, or 2) an attempt to avoid taking a position.
"If it is less damaging than the other thing, it is great." Yes, it is less damaging than the other thing and that is great. We will have lower carbon emissions--that is great. And in the long term we can lower our energy production requirements by advancing our battery technology. That also would benefit the environment.
Lithium ion batteries contain no toxic materials. They are classified as non-hazardous waste. It is currently cheaper to mine the materials that go into those batteries than it is to recycle them. That may change if we, for example, priced carbon and thereby internalized the environmental cost of processing materials and producing goods. The environmental hazards involved in producing the batteries have to do with the processing of nickel and cobalt into the positive electrodes. Tesla's batteries will be produced in the United States, which has a number of work safety and environmental protections that will require safe processing.
Your doubts about solar power are bizarre. Current solar panels are projected to have a useful life of 25 years. You don't see many of those that are not still in use. Many 1st gen solar systems are still operating at ~80% efficiency, even though they are 40 years old. I'm not sure where you live that you see solar panels in the trash. There are actually quite a few companies engaged in solar panel recycling, as the materials are quite valuable. Google it.
Just because you are not thinking about the end of life of batteries and solar panels does not mean that no one is. If you are actually interested in the details, then you should do more research than posing statements as questions on internet forums.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mack Knife
Few dare to ask the questionsrelated to the concerns you brought up. In the rush to publicize the end user result only, notice how little attention is being paid to what it takes and the effects of super scale battery production on the environment?
We come up with terms like "clean diesel" when there is no such thing, yet it sells. We have oil companies telling everyone about cleaner fuels when none of the fuels they process are clean, all are dirty to the environment.
It is one thing to sell a couple tens of thousands of cars using battery power but what happens if that number were to equal even half of domestic auto manufacturing? Failure rates for batteries even if they remain the same (doubtful) will mean huge increases just because of the scale up.
What happens when the lithium ion technology is supplanted by a different one? What happens to all those then obsolete batteries if the technologies aren't compatible?You can only reuse or recycle something for which an alternative need exists. If it doesn't exist, hello to disposal.
Who sees current or planned battery manufacturing to be the standard in 50 years? If we're not more careful than we have been, we'll accomplish little more than creating another but larger problem in the future.
If we believe that this is about the environment then we've already lost. This is about money, very little more.
I noticed that the common theme that comes up is always a comparison to gasoline. Sure, that is what we have. Does that mean that so long as something is better than gasoline, thinking stops?
In the name of do anything, we have many of the problems of today, especially when it comes to the environment. Just doing something isn't always the right thing to do.
Musk gets a pass not because it is environmentally friendly (what a load of PR) but because it is tied to jobs.
According to Musk, the time is not right to talk about specifics (recycling). No one dares ask why. When is the right time, after the problems with recycling the batteries comes up or before?
The problem already exists. Research recycling lithium based batteries.
"It is currently cheaper to mine the materials that go into those batteries than it is to recycle them."
Thank you so much. I said it but you said it so much better. Now, who is going to recycle those batteries since they will only get less costly to manufacture from new materials?
The prices to manufacture from new are going to drop dramatically. Explain what happens to a million batteries per year if it costs more to recycle than make as new. This will be good.
Since we're all imagining now, imagine if a great percentage of those vehicles use electric as their primary means of energy for locomotion. What happens to nearly a million used batteries per year if the cost to produce new ones is close to the cost to recycle one? What?
Anyone know what it takes to recycle advanced lithium batteries? Not a simple thing nor is it cost effective unless the battery is of a certain type and so far it seems only one company wants to get involved in doing that.
Cars are among the most recyclable/reused items around. Nearly every part of a car is either recycled or reused, a true miracle if you want to talk about reducing environmental impact after a manufacturing process. Guess what part is recycled most? The lead-acid battery? Why? Because there is a lot of money to be made recovering lead that is why. There is no significant amount, if any, lead in advanced batteries used in electric cars. The metals used for the most part have little value because there isn't much of it in each battery.
Now what happens when the costs to manufacture batteries used in electric cars is reduced to the point that there is very little financial benefit to recycling the old battery as opposed to simply making a new one?
Wow. I thought you couldn't get lower than comparing lithium ion battery-powered cars to oil companies and clean diesel, but here you go. Just to be clear, you are arguing that ordinary combustion engine cars with lead-acid batteries are better for the environment than EVs. 40,000 metric tons of lead find themselves in landfills, even though lead recycling is a viable industry. Another 70,000 metric tons of lead are released during the mining and manufacturing process. Lead compounds are highly toxic, and linked to many human health problems. Lead recycling also emits dangerous chemicals during the lead smelting process.
Your take on EVs and conventional combustion vehicles is so bizarre that I can only imagine that you are on the payroll of a company or country that has a lot to fear from EVs.
"It is currently cheaper to mine the materials that go into those batteries than it is to recycle them."
Thank you so much. I said it but you said it so much better. Now, who is going to recycle those batteries since they will only get less costly to manufacture from new materials?
The prices to manufacture from new are going to drop dramatically. Explain what happens to a million batteries per year if it costs more to recycle than make as new. This will be good.
Keep in mind that there are already millions of lithium ion batteries sold every year. They power your laptop, cell phone, tablet, digital camera, electric wheelchair, portable power tools, and any number of other technological gadgets sold worldwide.
Keep in mind that there are already millions of lithium ion batteries sold every year. They power your laptop, cell phone, tablet, digital camera, electric wheelchair, portable power tools, and any number of other technological gadgets sold worldwide.
Do you know what is happening to those batteries after they are used up?
That doesn't answer the question. Let me help, most are thrown away. They end up in landfills. Now multiply that not by the same number of rather small batteries but those sized for a typical electric car such as the Tesla since that can be considered typical.
How many people are recycling the used batteries in their mobile phone or cameras? Saying they can be recycled is not the same and actually getting recycled.
Wow. I thought you couldn't get lower than comparing lithium ion battery-powered cars to oil companies and clean diesel, but here you go. Just to be clear, you are arguing that ordinary combustion engine cars with lead-acid batteries are better for the environment than EVs. 40,000 metric tons of lead find themselves in landfills, even though lead recycling is a viable industry. Another 70,000 metric tons of lead are released during the mining and manufacturing process. Lead compounds are highly toxic, and linked to many human health problems. Lead recycling also emits dangerous chemicals during the lead smelting process.
Your take on EVs and conventional combustion vehicles is so bizarre that I can only imagine that you are on the payroll of a company or country that has a lot to fear from EVs.
1. When you get over the pathetic attempts at a personal attacks (very pathetic indeed), let me know.
2. As for being clear, no I didn't put forth the argument you claimed. See #1.
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