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If we don't get a handle on our GHG emissions, life on this planet will suffer tremendously. Emissions from burning fossil fuels for electricity and transportation are "low hanging fruit" that can be greatly reduced with minimal disruption. Battery powered vehicles such as the Tesla are not a panacea, but are critical technology for improving transportation emissions. Longer term we need to think about root sustainability of transportation, and what changes to land use need to be made.
Swapping pollution generation systems doesn't solve problems, it only changes the source.
Making and charging batteries is one of the most inefficient uses of energy. The problem is few people who advocate electric vehicles take the time to analyze the complete manufacturing to end of use cycle. It is so much easier to just believe what those who live by the "do as I say not as I do" mantra than to think critically about the subject.
When asked a simple question as to what happens to nearly a million electric vehicle batteries per year that will be unusable (not to mention the Billion other batteries now being tossed every year) the only retorts are that the time is ready to think about that.
Yeah, that is exactly why most of the environmental problems we have today in this county exist. Put "Green" in the topic and suddenly everyone gets giddy and dares not to ask any questions, just go along with the group.
Why is it that there is such a rush to accept one technology without thorough analysis and gobble up as has been said right on this forum (no worries, Musk knows it all, trust him) is so common among those who claim to do the right things?
Right here, some have answered any question with comments similar to "Mush knows it all, he is a genius" and "Musk's band of geniuses have it all figured out". Go ahead and look, that is what passes for thinking here.
My household (3 people) uses approximately 550 gallons of water per month (what most individuals use in a few days) and nearly all of it is reused. Black waste is macerated and then pumped to the return sewer system using almost no water. Our electric comes from solar panels and we use AGM batteries for storage but those batteries last nearly 8 years and then are recycled because unlike lithium based batteries, they have value even when depleted and no longer suitable for energy storage. Rain water is captured in cisterns that is filtered and cycles via solar powered pumps to grow many of our vegetables. We have a gas guzzling truck that used less than 3000 miles per year and doesn't sit there with expensive lithium batteries wasting away (they do just not as fast as some others) yet we travel often. Our emergency electric comes from a 10kw propane generator because propane is among the most stable fuels in existence and the sun doesn't always shine enough to maintain the batteries yet we use it perhaps 3 times a year for very short periods.
The groupthinkers like to believe they are at the forefront of environmental concerns but as usual, their arrogant thinking that only they know what works or will work is lacking.
Mostly, the groupthinker are talkers and not doers. They spend their days reading studies to support their claims and their need to be part of something leads them to people like Musk in blind obedience.
Start looking at electric cars from a practical perspective and you'll see the obvious flaws in them.
Last edited by Mack Knife; 03-03-2014 at 09:28 AM..
The cities in China have the roads because it is called logic. Because you don't build roads out to nowhere.
It is not green industries causing the pollution. China was polluted way before they were making solar panels. China is wanting to put solar energy production on top because they want to use it to combat their pollution. Stop listening to debunked garbage from the butthole of talk radio stations.
China's air pollution problems date from the 1980s they weren't making solar panels or any green products then. What they had a was a ton of coal fired power plants and industry. Now they have a ton of cars in their cities. Because they don't have cars in the rural areas. They have week long traffic jams in their cities due to how many people have cars in the cities.
The cities in China have the roads because it is called logic. Because you don't build roads out to nowhere.
It is not green industries causing the pollution. China was polluted way before they were making solar panels. China is wanting to put solar energy production on top because they want to use it to combat their pollution. Stop listening to debunked garbage from the butthole of talk radio stations.
China's air pollution problems date from the 1980s they weren't making solar panels or any green products then. What they had a was a ton of coal fired power plants and industry. Now they have a ton of cars in their cities. Because they don't have cars in the rural areas. They have week long traffic jams in their cities due to how many people have cars in the cities.
There are lots of roads outside the cities in China and they all do not lead to nowhere. Time to rethink some outdated knowledge. We both know that you weren't saying the cities had roads because that is the place to build them.
You attributed a large amount of China's pollution to cars and now suddenly change your tune. How fast the stories change.
Talk radio? Sorry to burst your bubble but I don't listen to them, seems you do. Back to trying to make this personal eh? Typical.
Just what do you think all those "green" industries use for power?
Like I said, put "green" in the name of anything and there are always a segment of the population that can't see past that.
More distractions. How will the super scale battery manufacturing factories clean up the mess they will make? Wait, there won't be any. What was said about everything else that became a mess. Too bad we won't be around to live through it because it will take decades before those who now tout "green" will see the results.
Have any ideas on how all those lithium batteries are going to be recycled if they ever get recycled? Any thoughts at all beyond press releases and promises by those raking in all the money making them?
Swapping pollution generation systems doesn't solve problems, it only changes the source.
Heaven is in the details. Obviously. In the US our power generation has gotten increasingly cleaner for many decades now. It's a progressive process as new technologies emerge.
Quote:
Making and charging batteries is one of the most inefficient uses of energy. The problem is few people who advocate electric vehicles take the time to analyze the complete manufacturing to end of use cycle. It is so much easier to just believe what those who live by the "do as I say not as I do" mantra than to think critically about the subject.
When asked a simple question as to what happens to nearly a million electric vehicle batteries per year that will be unusable (not to mention the Billion other batteries now being tossed every year) the only retorts are that the time is ready to think about that.
Yeah, that is exactly why most of the environmental problems we have today in this county exist. Put "Green" in the topic and suddenly everyone gets giddy and dares not to ask any questions, just go along with the group.
Sweeping generalizations like these only serve to obscure the fact that there are actually a lot of very smart people working on these matters, and engaging in critical thinking about every aspect of our environmental issues. And no matter how hard you object, major auto manufacturers from around the globe are lining up to consult with Elon Musk and the experts at Tesla, and to license their patents, because they've already demonstrated practical expertise and breakthrough thinking in this emerging field.
Quote:
Why is it that there is such a rush to accept one technology without thorough analysis and gobble up as has been said right on this forum (no worries, Musk knows it all, trust him) is so common among those who claim to do the right things?
Right here, some have answered any question with comments similar to "Mush knows it all, he is a genius" and "Musk's band of geniuses have it all figured out". Go ahead and look, that is what passes for thinking here.
Mostly, the groupthinker are talkers and not doers. They spend their days reading studies to support their claims and their need to be part of something leads them to people like Musk in blind obedience.
Clearly you have a bias against Elon Musk, and against electric vehicles, and that bias prevents neutral assessment and evaluation of what others have to say. Not to mention you're just personally nasty to others here, for no reason at all. Need I point out that it's just human nature, when confronted with such incessant naysaying, to begin to tune out on screeds like this.
Quote:
My household (3 people) uses approximately 550 gallons of water per month (what most individuals use in a few days) and nearly all of it is reused. Black waste is macerated and then pumped to the return sewer system using almost no water. Our electric comes from solar panels and we use AGM batteries for storage but those batteries last nearly 8 years and then are recycled because unlike lithium based batteries, they have value even when depleted and no longer suitable for energy storage. Rain water is captured in cisterns that is filtered and cycles via solar powered pumps to grow many of our vegetables. We have a gas guzzling truck that used less than 3000 miles per year and doesn't sit there with expensive lithium batteries wasting away (they do just not as fast as some others) yet we travel often. Our emergency electric comes from a 10kw propane generator because propane is among the most stable fuels in existence and the sun doesn't always shine enough to maintain the batteries yet we use it perhaps 3 times a year for very short periods.
Congratulations! That's a great personal accomplishment, seriously! Where do you live?
Quote:
The groupthinkers like to believe they are at the forefront of environmental concerns but as usual, their arrogant thinking that only they know what works or will work is lacking.
Odd, that's pretty much the description I would attach to the way you object to everything anyone else says here that differs from what you believe, as if nobody else could possibly know as much as you, and we're all just a mooing herd of know-nothings to you. That's pretty much the textbook definition of arrogance.
Quote:
Start looking at electric cars from a practical perspective and you'll see the obvious flaws in them.
"Obvious" to you, perhaps, but not seen that way at all by major players, like the corporations and government organizations which are investing Billion$ in research and development to bring these cars to market.
I'll say it again... so far all that has been publicly announced is that Tesla will build a battery factory. It's pure "black hat" thinking to assert that the only possible outcome of this announcement is negative. The simple truth is you simply don't know enough to spew out all these objections with such invective.
How about dropping the attitude and just engaging in a normal conversation on the subject? There's really no need for all the invective.
Cradle to grave analysis by DOE has established that EVs result in substantially less pollution than gasoline powered ICEs. What is even more important is that pollution is not uniform and EVs contribute much less to the critical air pollution levels we have in some of our cities.
Swapping pollution generation systems doesn't solve problems, it only changes the source.
Making and charging batteries is one of the most inefficient uses of energy. The problem is few people who advocate electric vehicles take the time to analyze the complete manufacturing to end of use cycle. It is so much easier to just believe what those who live by the "do as I say not as I do" mantra than to think critically about the subject.
Yeah, that is exactly why most of the environmental problems we have today in this county exist. Put "Green" in the topic and suddenly everyone gets giddy and dares not to ask any questions, just go along with the group.
My household (3 people) uses approximately 550 gallons of water per month (what most individuals use in a few days) and nearly all of it is reused. Black waste is macerated and then pumped to the return sewer system using almost no water. Our electric comes from solar panels and we use AGM batteries for storage but those batteries last nearly 8 years and then are recycled because unlike lithium based batteries, they have value even when depleted and no longer suitable for energy storage. Rain water is captured in cisterns that is filtered and cycles via solar powered pumps to grow many of our vegetables. We have a gas guzzling truck that used less than 3000 miles per year and doesn't sit there with expensive lithium batteries wasting away (they do just not as fast as some others) yet we travel often. Our emergency electric comes from a 10kw propane generator because propane is among the most stable fuels in existence and the sun doesn't always shine enough to maintain the batteries yet we use it perhaps 3 times a year for very short periods.
Start looking at electric cars from a practical perspective and you'll see the obvious flaws in them.
Your vagueness about the "environmental problems" of EVs is telling. The environmental improvement of an EV depends on the cleanliness of the grid used to charge it. 99.9% of automobile users are connected to the grid. The average driver travels around 15,000 miles a year. The average fuel efficiency of new cars is 23.8, an all-time high. Older cars are significantly less efficient. EVs have no direct emissions, meaning they don't contribute to smog in our gridlocked cities. They also become more emissions-friendly as the grid gets cleaner, as it has been doing steadily in most states over the last couple of decades. In some regions, the grid is quite clean (California, upstate New York, pacific northwest, NYC/Westchester, etc.). In SoCal, using an EV emits greenhouse gases equivalent to a 79mpg gas-powered car. 45% of Americans live in places where an EV generates fewer greenhouse gases than a 50mpg gas-powered car. Another 37% live in places where an EV generates emissions on the order of a 41-50mpg gas-powered car. The last 18% live in places where an EV generates emissions comparable to a 31-40mpg gas-powered car--these last 18% have the dirtiest grids in America.
Your focus on the production and disposal of EV batteries is misplaced. The emissions improvement of EVs outweighs any legitimate concern about lithium ion batteries.
From a practical perspective, EVs give us a major improvement in greenhouse gas emissions and smog reduction. They are also a great step in the process of improving battery technology and efficiency, which will ultimately reduce our energy production needs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mack Knife
There are lots of roads outside the cities in China and they all do not lead to nowhere. Time to rethink some outdated knowledge. We both know that you weren't saying the cities had roads because that is the place to build them.
You attributed a large amount of China's pollution to cars and now suddenly change your tune. How fast the stories change.
Talk radio? Sorry to burst your bubble but I don't listen to them, seems you do. Back to trying to make this personal eh? Typical.
Just what do you think all those "green" industries use for power?
Like I said, put "green" in the name of anything and there are always a segment of the population that can't see past that.
More distractions. How will the super scale battery manufacturing factories clean up the mess they will make? Wait, there won't be any. What was said about everything else that became a mess. Too bad we won't be around to live through it because it will take decades before those who now tout "green" will see the results.
Have any ideas on how all those lithium batteries are going to be recycled if they ever get recycled? Any thoughts at all beyond press releases and promises by those raking in all the money making them?
I give you a 3/10 on the troll scale. Not bad. 1.5/10 if you are doing government/industry information operations. Any ideas on how we will recycle all those tailpipe emissions from gas-powered cars?
Quote:
Originally Posted by OpenD
Heaven is in the details. Obviously. In the US our power generation has gotten increasingly cleaner for many decades now. It's a progressive process as new technologies emerge.
Sweeping generalizations like these only serve to obscure the fact that there are actually a lot of very smart people working on these matters, and engaging in critical thinking about every aspect of our environmental issues. And no matter how hard you object, major auto manufacturers from around the globe are lining up to consult with Elon Musk and the experts at Tesla, and to license their patents, because they've already demonstrated practical expertise and breakthrough thinking in this emerging field.
Clearly you have a bias against Elon Musk, and against electric vehicles, and that bias prevents neutral assessment and evaluation of what others have to say. Not to mention you're just personally nasty to others here, for no reason at all. Need I point out that it's just human nature, when confronted with such incessant naysaying, to begin to tune out on screeds like this.
Congratulations! That's a great personal accomplishment, seriously! Where do you live?
Odd, that's pretty much the description I would attach to the way you object to everything anyone else says here that differs from what you believe, as if nobody else could possibly know as much as you, and we're all just a mooing herd of know-nothings to you. That's pretty much the textbook definition of arrogance.
"Obvious" to you, perhaps, but not seen that way at all by major players, like the corporations and government organizations which are investing Billion$ in research and development to bring these cars to market.
I'll say it again... so far all that has been publicly announced is that Tesla will build a battery factory. It's pure "black hat" thinking to assert that the only possible outcome of this announcement is negative. The simple truth is you simply don't know enough to spew out all these objections with such invective.
How about dropping the attitude and just engaging in a normal conversation on the subject? There's really no need for all the invective.
+1000
Quote:
Originally Posted by DCforever
Cradle to grave analysis by DOE has established that EVs result in substantially less pollution than gasoline powered ICEs. What is even more important is that pollution is not uniform and EVs contribute much less to the critical air pollution levels we have in some of our cities.
Truth. L.A. has a lot of traffic that can generate lots of smog. It has a pretty clean grid, a solid economy, and will be a major market for EVs. Even though there are indirect emissions via the power grid for EVs, removing the tailpipe emissions that contribute to smog is a big deal for improving Angelenos' air quality, which is notorious for negative human health impacts.
The rivers aren't polluted because of exhaust emissions. The ground isn't polluted because of exhaust emissions.
Ever been to China? I bet not. If you'd ever been there you know where the air pollution comes from, industries which are busy making all those "green" things, you know, electronics that get shipped in biodegradable packaging, things like that where the gullible get their package delivered via air freight and a diesel burning truck in the USA but what the heck, so long as the package isn't a plastic blister pack right? Solar panels where high concentrations of solvents are used with very little control over how it is disposed. Coal burning electric generation plants in a country that produces more solar panels than any other on earth.
Once detached from the umbilical cord of groupthink people see things for what they are, not what studies tell you they are.
I don't read news and studies all that often and I never quoted any of my sources, but since you like to assume falsehoods, here are some of my sources for my opinion. One of my best friends married a Chinese lady that just got to the US to finish up being a Doctor several years ago. I am rapidly approaching old age from middle age so this isn't just last years information either. And another one of my high school friends and the company he worked for made millions getting things made in China to bring over... Both go there often, have gone there often over the past couple of decades, one has lived in China for awhile too. So your guess is *wrong*, you know what happens when you assume. Once again, I never said major industry in China doesn't pollute. It is responsible for most of the other 78%. I'd take almost a 1/4 reduction in pollution, wouldn't you? And since you are posting information, what are your sources? What studies have you personally done to come to the conclusion that the cars in China do not contribute to the pollution?
I only said there is a high concentration of cars in cities and cities have roads - and most people drive their cars of roads. A road can be dirt, gravel, chip seal, concrete, asphalt, etc... Again, you assumed I meant only "paved roads". The rural countryside doesn't have a lot of roads or people. If it's 1000s of acres of wild area or farmland, there isn't a lot of cars there. The difference would be minimal at best.
You still have avoided my first question, posted links to articles that prove my point and then make assumptions that are not true.
So I will be direct - all I ask is for a ONE WORD response of YES or NO. If overnight, all the cars in China when to EV would it help with pollution?
Heaven is in the details. Obviously. In the US our power generation has gotten increasingly cleaner for many decades now. It's a progressive process as new technologies emerge.
Sweeping generalizations like these only serve to obscure the fact that there are actually a lot of very smart people working on these matters, and engaging in critical thinking about every aspect of our environmental issues. And no matter how hard you object, major auto manufacturers from around the globe are lining up to consult with Elon Musk and the experts at Tesla, and to license their patents, because they've already demonstrated practical expertise and breakthrough thinking in this emerging field.
Clearly you have a bias against Elon Musk, and against electric vehicles, and that bias prevents neutral assessment and evaluation of what others have to say. Not to mention you're just personally nasty to others here, for no reason at all. Need I point out that it's just human nature, when confronted with such incessant naysaying, to begin to tune out on screeds like this.
Congratulations! That's a great personal accomplishment, seriously! Where do you live?
Odd, that's pretty much the description I would attach to the way you object to everything anyone else says here that differs from what you believe, as if nobody else could possibly know as much as you, and we're all just a mooing herd of know-nothings to you. That's pretty much the textbook definition of arrogance.
"Obvious" to you, perhaps, but not seen that way at all by major players, like the corporations and government organizations which are investing Billion$ in research and development to bring these cars to market.
I'll say it again... so far all that has been publicly announced is that Tesla will build a battery factory. It's pure "black hat" thinking to assert that the only possible outcome of this announcement is negative. The simple truth is you simply don't know enough to spew out all these objections with such invective.
How about dropping the attitude and just engaging in a normal conversation on the subject? There's really no need for all the invective.
I don't read news and studies all that often and I never quoted any of my sources, but since you like to assume falsehoods, here are some of my sources for my opinion. One of my best friends married a Chinese lady that just got to the US to finish up being a Doctor several years ago. I am rapidly approaching old age from middle age so this isn't just last years information either. And another one of my high school friends and the company he worked for made millions getting things made in China to bring over... Both go there often, have gone there often over the past couple of decades, one has lived in China for awhile too. So your guess is *wrong*, you know what happens when you assume. Once again, I never said major industry in China doesn't pollute. It is responsible for most of the other 78%. I'd take almost a 1/4 reduction in pollution, wouldn't you? And since you are posting information, what are your sources? What studies have you personally done to come to the conclusion that the cars in China do not contribute to the pollution?
I only said there is a high concentration of cars in cities and cities have roads - and most people drive their cars of roads. A road can be dirt, gravel, chip seal, concrete, asphalt, etc... Again, you assumed I meant only "paved roads". The rural countryside doesn't have a lot of roads or people. If it's 1000s of acres of wild area or farmland, there isn't a lot of cars there. The difference would be minimal at best.
You still have avoided my first question, posted links to articles that prove my point and then make assumptions that are not true.
So I will be direct - all I ask is for a ONE WORD response of YES or NO. If overnight, all the cars in China when to EV would it help with pollution?
Direct. If all transportation were to be stopped overnight, would it help with pollution?
That is as relevant and ridiculous as the question you asked but perhaps you can reply with a "yes" or "no".
Having Chinese girlfriends hardly compares to knowing more than how to get a date. Why would you bring such a personal piece of information into the discussion?
I also had no idea that air pollution remains only in the vicinity of the source of the pollution. Maybe the people in the Northeastern part of the USA would be glad to know that. Seems they would disagree.
So I will be direct - all I ask is for a ONE WORD response of YES or NO. If overnight, all the cars in China when to EV would it help with pollution?
I'll jump in with the obvious, correct, unequivocal answer, since even a schoolchild could get this one right.
Since EVs use far less fuel per mile than cars with internal combustion engines, and produce far less net air pollution per mile traveled, then YES!, replacing all their fuel burning cars with EVs would produce a large net improvement in reducing their air pollution.
Just look at what happened at the Beijing Olympics, when air pollution was threatening the games, so the government just ordered all cars except essential vehicles off the road for a few days preceding the Olympics, and the skies cleared up!
It's not lost me at all that Tesla expects to sell as many of their electric cars in China next year as they do in the US.
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