Tesla plans to build giant battery factory in US (solar panels, recycling, greenhouse gases)
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The lead on this story echoes my own feeling that battery prices need to come down in order for Tesla's planned lower cost model for 2017 to be successful. But there is an additional factor... getting enough batteries to keep up with demand. Rumor has it that Panasonic was not able to supply as many batteries as current demand already calls for, so they had begun rationing their output among different car companies. Tesla was concerned that much larger car companies could demand larger shipments, and possibly throttle Tesla's growth. So this is a major strategic move on their part to avoid that risk. Matter of fact, they might even become a supplier to the others.
Quote:
Perhaps the biggest hurdle Tesla faces in its goal to build an affordable electric car is the cost of batteries that eliminate the need for gasoline. To deal with the problem, Elon Musk's upstart automaker is planning to build a "Gigafactory" — a huge factory that by 2020 would exceed 2013 global production of battery packs.
In a release today, Tesla explained the goal of the new factory:
The Gigafactory is designed to reduce cell costs much faster than the status quo and, by 2020, produce more lithium ion batteries annually than were produced worldwide in 2013. By the end of the first year of volume production of our mass market vehicle, we expect the Gigafactory will have driven down the per kWh cost of our battery pack by more than 30 percent.
In 2013, the first full year of Model S production, Tesla accounted for more than a third of the industry's battery usage. The company now works with Panasonic to produce the batteries that power the Model S, but Musk said in an earnings call earlier this month that he expects to have more than one partner on the Gigafactory.
PALO ALTO, Calif. -- Electric car maker Tesla Motors said Wednesday it's considering sites in Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas for a massive battery factory that would employ around 6,500 people.
The company didn't immediately name the locations it's considering in those states. Tesla plans to start construction this year and complete the factory - which it dubs its "Gigafactory" - in 2017.
.....
The new factory will provide enough batteries to supply 500,000 vehicles by 2020, Tesla said. Tesla expects to produce 35,000 vehicles this year.
I've been following this story. And Tesla has some "green" technology planned for the complex, wherever it ends up. Wind and Solar power for the huge facility.
I think that this will take Tesla into the big leagues. The good news is that not only will Tesla be able to produce a $35K model, the other car companies will have to up their game as well. I have no doubt that if everything is the same as it is today, that Tesla could sell hundreds of thousands of cars a year. The only reason that they cannot is that they don't have the ability to build them all and be able to build them at the $35k price point. and since the cars rarely need service - there are not a lot of service dollars for Tesla to take advantage of.
Lots of jobs. It might be a good thing or it might now, depending upon how polluting the factory is.
I know that China is destroying her environment and a lot of the pollution comes from mining the minerals needed for the modern high efficiency batteries.
I would hope that an electric car company would be environmentally conscious. However, I would be more interested in proof than in crossing my fingers and hoping for the best.
Lots of jobs. It might be a good thing or it might now, depending upon how polluting the factory is.
I know that China is destroying her environment and a lot of the pollution comes from mining the minerals needed for the modern high efficiency batteries.
I would hope that an electric car company would be environmentally conscious. However, I would be more interested in proof than in crossing my fingers and hoping for the best.
Still, most likely that is extremely good news.
Few dare to ask the questions related to the concerns you brought up. In the rush to publicize the end user result only, notice how little attention is being paid to what it takes and the effects of super scale battery production on the environment?
We come up with terms like "clean diesel" when there is no such thing, yet it sells. We have oil companies telling everyone about cleaner fuels when none of the fuels they process are clean, all are dirty to the environment.
It is one thing to sell a couple tens of thousands of cars using battery power but what happens if that number were to equal even half of domestic auto manufacturing? Failure rates for batteries even if they remain the same (doubtful) will mean huge increases just because of the scale up.
What happens when the lithium ion technology is supplanted by a different one? What happens to all those then obsolete batteries if the technologies aren't compatible? You can only reuse or recycle something for which an alternative need exists. If it doesn't exist, hello to disposal.
Who sees current or planned battery manufacturing to be the standard in 50 years? If we're not more careful than we have been, we'll accomplish little more than creating another but larger problem in the future.
If we believe that this is about the environment then we've already lost. This is about money, very little more.
Few dare to ask the questions related to the concerns you brought up. In the rush to publicize the end user result only, notice how little attention is being paid to what it takes and the effects of super scale battery production on the environment?
We come up with terms like "clean diesel" when there is no such thing, yet it sells. We have oil companies telling everyone about cleaner fuels when none of the fuels they process are clean, all are dirty to the environment.
It is one thing to sell a couple tens of thousands of cars using battery power but what happens if that number were to equal even half of domestic auto manufacturing? Failure rates for batteries even if they remain the same (doubtful) will mean huge increases just because of the scale up.
What happens when the lithium ion technology is supplanted by a different one? What happens to all those then obsolete batteries if the technologies aren't compatible? You can only reuse or recycle something for which an alternative need exists. If it doesn't exist, hello to disposal.
Who sees current or planned battery manufacturing to be the standard in 50 years? If we're not more careful than we have been, we'll accomplish little more than creating another but larger problem in the future.
If we believe that this is about the environment then we've already lost. This is about money, very little more.
It is about money and it is about the environment. If you think that battery production and electric vehicles are more damaging to the environment than oil production and burning gasoline, then I hope that you can provide some proof, because that is quite a claim. Litium ion batteries are produced mainly from very common minerals--steel, nickel, tin, and carbon. Electric vehicles do not directly emit greenhouse gases (although their charging uses electric grid power, so the energy is essentially as clean as the grid--very clean in Washington, very dirty in West Virginia).
Consider this, more importantly: we have to produce enough energy at every moment to satisfy all of our grid demand. Imagine how much less energy we could use if batteries became more efficient and we had more storage capacity. As Tesla increases battery capacity, expect to see gains in grid-level storage follow on. That means we can build fewer power plants of all types, including coal and oil plants. Solar/Wind + batteries = cleaning up energy production.
Quote:
Originally Posted by oregonwoodsmoke
That's a forward thinking company.
Lots of jobs. It might be a good thing or it might now, depending upon how polluting the factory is.
I know that China is destroying her environment and a lot of the pollution comes from mining the minerals needed for the modern high efficiency batteries.
I would hope that an electric car company would be environmentally conscious. However, I would be more interested in proof than in crossing my fingers and hoping for the best.
Still, most likely that is extremely good news.
They are looking at southwestern states for the battery plant in order to use solar for much of the plant's energy needs (Musk is also the Chairman of SolarCity). Expect Tesla's facility to be at the forefront of "green" manufacturing.
Batteries can be recycled even if it is for something else. Ford is working on a solar charger for its plug in cmax and at home you can park under a canopy that magnifies the suns rays to get a full charge. Of course most people probably need that at work do there is work to be done. Even via motors has a prototype 800 watt panel on its EREV pickup.
Everything about any car becomes obsolete but that doesn't mean you shouldn't take advantage of what is currently out there. When was the last time you saw a dealer installing a carburetor? Yet, I can still buy one for a car that needs one. Point is, batteries will be around for awhile even as the tech gets better.
Btw, my clean diesel pickup sure is a while lot cleaner than the previous ones I have driven. Even if the process to make diesel isn't clean, I don't pollute my neighborhood anymore.
Litium ion batteries are produced mainly from very common minerals--steel, nickel, tin, and carbon.
This is a point a lot of people overlook... there really isn't a lot of lithium in a lithium ion battery. It's function is primarily as an electrolyte, and the formula doesn't require much of it to operate.
As for the inevitable chorus of critics, I find it hard to believe that there is any aspect of this which Elon Musk has not already thought through with his merry band of experts. The guy is amazing, a certified genius.
It is about money and it is about the environment. If you think that battery production and electric vehicles are more damaging to the environment than oil production and burning gasoline, then I hope that you can provide some proof, because that is quite a claim. Litium ion batteries are produced mainly from very common minerals--steel, nickel, tin, and carbon. Electric vehicles do not directly emit greenhouse gases (although their charging uses electric grid power, so the energy is essentially as clean as the grid--very clean in Washington, very dirty in West Virginia).
Consider this, more importantly: we have to produce enough energy at every moment to satisfy all of our grid demand. Imagine how much less energy we could use if batteries became more efficient and we had more storage capacity. As Tesla increases battery capacity, expect to see gains in grid-level storage follow on. That means we can build fewer power plants of all types, including coal and oil plants. Solar/Wind + batteries = cleaning up energy production.
They are looking at southwestern states for the battery plant in order to use solar for much of the plant's energy needs (Musk is also the Chairman of SolarCity). Expect Tesla's facility to be at the forefront of "green" manufacturing.
Got it, so long as one thing is less damaging than the other thing it is great.
Solar Panels. Seen anyone recycling them from consumer use? Nope, they get trashed, often broken up into small pieces and thrown away.
Now to something you said. Where did I say that battery production was worse than processing oil? The fact and lets stick to facts for once, is that I didn't say anything of the sort. I put forth a question and possible scenario, for that I don't need proof.
I didn't claim anything, you implied I did.
Then we get to imagine this and that. Well then, imagine if in 10 years a completely new technology is created that makes lithium ion batteries obsolete and because that technology take s a different course, the materials from the lithium ion batteries can't easily be recycled or reused in the new batteries.
Imagine what happens then to all the existing lithium ion batteries.
Steel, nickel, tin and carbon. Common, yes, clean, hardly. Take a wild guess how large amounts of steel, nickel, tin and carbon are processed into the forms needed to make batteries. Any idea?
Like I said, instead of thinking only about what goes into your flashlight, think about what it takes to make that battery. And lets not forget that batteries don't produce anything, they store energy potential.
Where are the specifics on what will happen to millions of batteries of the size being put into electric cars and what happens when the technology changes as it will since demand for them will also propel the development of new battery technology.
Does that mean not making electric cars? Hardly but are any of the concerns about what will happen to millions of batteries be answered? Not really. But what does that matter right? So long as it isn't oil who cares?
This is a point a lot of people overlook... there really isn't a lot of lithium in a lithium ion battery. It's function is primarily as an electrolyte, and the formula doesn't require much of it to operate.
As for the inevitable chorus of critics, I find it hard to believe that there is any aspect of this which Elon Musk has not already thought through with his merry band of experts. The guy is amazing, a certified genius.
What they said about nuclear power plants too. It took quite a few geniuses to figure that one out too. Of course, it took a while for all the problems to surface as well but what the heck, steel, tin, carbon, and nickel, just walk around the yard and pick it up. No mining needed right?
The material uses in nuclear power plants? More concrete than anything else. Add some water, process some ore and what the heck, clean power. Uh huh.
End to end, just where are all those materials coming from, since all those answers are known?
Making something is fine until something else comes along and no one needs it. Then everyone is looking for a trash can.
Exactly what is Musk's plan for the guaranteed eventuality that makes the battery technology he is building obsolete? Something specific since generalities and pie in the sky promises are what created the environmental problems of today.
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